Regarding the 'burden of proof' when reporting |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366704720000
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tl;dr I'd like in-game buttons for capturing screenshots and chat logs which are directly uploaded so that these can be used as proof for further complaints against players or staff members. I would also like players to be able to load their own ban/mute logs using a command. Other ideas are most welcome as long as they relate to the problem I described below. --- Start of my actual post Lately there have been a few threads (again) on staff actions and the difficulty players have appealing against these actions succesfully. I'm using this thread to list a few things that I believe would make it easier to prove things people claimed actually happened. --- The problem Staff members want to be sure they're not being tricked into sanctioning the wrong person by a report. They demand proof, but not just any proof. As it turns out, copy-pasted chat logs don't suffice, and neither do screenshots as these could be edited before uploaded. Since it's a game on a screen your information is pretty much that, though: text and images. I've been told (so I don't know this for sure) you get taken seriously if you happen to have the incident recorded. Then again, who actually has such software running all the time? Another problem is this: where reports against players can be easily followed up as the behaviour often continues on the same day, complaints against staff members usually are regarding some incident with a small chance of the same situation re-occurring. --- Actions one might consider to tackle this issue I'm sure there are more things that can be done than the ones I just listed, so feel free to contribute. My main focus is on making it easier for players to come by proof. If you feel like a different course should be taken regarding complaints, you should probably make a different thread. --- 1. Add capturing tools on the interface. By these I mean in-game buttons to upload either your entire chatlog or to take (and directly upload) a screenshot of the game. This information could be stored on some server owned by TFM for a limited amount of time (one or two weeks?) which is long enough to deal with the report but makes sure they don't have to purchase a huge amount of online storage space. The benefits of this: - You would need to take really drastic measures to cheat this system (making it a reliable source). It would be really hard to fake proof instead of making it really hard to get proof. - Unrelated to complaints/reports: allow people to download their images for personal use and you also have a new and fun functionality to take in-game screenshots with. Given the huge amount of such files on CFM I bet people would like to have this. Cons: - It would take up more space on the already cramped interface. I've suggested an overhaul to the interface before. --- 2. Allow players to pull their own ban/mute history from the game. By this I mean a list of past mutes and bans listed along with their reasons and length. If it's technically not too tricky, it would also be great to add which public mod to talk to it about. Pros: - This will lead to a better overview of what happened to a player. They won't have to screencap their banning or muting reasons for later complaints. - This feature should be easy to implement, as mods already have such a functionality. Players just need a more limited version of this which only loads their own logs. Cons: - Can't think of any. --- I edited this on 23/04: I removed the original second idea as the cons outweighed the pros and coined a new idea for which all credit goes to Rainee! Thanks for reading! Or at least for skimming through it. Special thanks to Thunderai for discussing all this with me earlier ^^ |
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Read the whole thing, I'm all up for the first suggestion. Goodjob on writing all that Lemo You have my support! |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366715520000
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Of course I'll support. The discussion about this was fun \o/ Edit: Thanks for the mention :P |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366720620000
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I am with this, support But I don`t know if you mentioned, but there should be a limited amount of captures you can take or something to prevent it being abused |
![]() ![]() « Consul » 1366729560000
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I like the first idea of a screen capturing option, it is always easy to capture your screen regardless of the purpose of the screenie. When talking about the second idea, I'm not sure it is wise to give such details to the public. For one, it is a privacy matter between the banned player and the moderator. Player 1 has no interest in knowing that player 2 and 3 are banned for racial slurs for example. Second is that I can already imagine a witch hunt starting where every single action of a moderator is followed and questioned upon. This might sound unrealistic, but I'm sure there are people that will spend all their time tracking down even the smallest possible error in a moderators performance. Do we want a situation where moderators are too afraid to do anything simply because they don't want to having to explain all their actions over and over? Even though I might not be aware of the complete procedure when handling complaints against moderators, I think it is more responsible to let administrators be the judge in these cases rather than asking the public to make these judgements. Because often the public has not got all details of a situation in order to give an objective judgement, so eventually it would feed untrue rumours which could get a life on their own. |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366731480000
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Yeah, I ran into similar problems regarding the second idea :( Guess I'll be discarding that later. What I'm afraid of, though, is that apparently it already is too much of a workload. If you add new features for providing proof to this, the amount of content they'll have to plow through will be much larger as well. I guess the team should expand to serve the community properly. --- Edit: What also would come in handy regarding this, is a way for players to see a list of their own past offenses in game. A command like "/log" would show these ban/mute reasons, dates and ban/mute hours in a window. I believe moderators already have such a feature. It'd be little work to create a limited version for the normal players as a usergroup, one which would only display their own log. All credits to Rainee for this idea. |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366733280000
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I'm all for the first idea, but I would add a limit on how many screenshots anyone can take per day. There's no way that feature wouldn't be spammed like crazy otherwise. Against the second idea though. Mods are players too and should be just as entitled to their privacy. I feel like if this were added, all the mods would either a) switch to private or b) get a mod account separate from their main. If you're trying to improve communication between mods and players, that's probably not the way to go. Also seconding Anythin, it's not really other players' business what others have been punished for and how long. On that note, I do like the idea of players being able to pull up their own mute/ban logs in-game. We have the option here on the forums, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem implementing something similar in-game. It might be helpful if they can see who muted/banned them too (provided it was a public mod, and not an arb or private mod), so they know who to talk to if they want to appeal. |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366741500000
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Alright, I removed the public log idea and added the idea of at least being able to pull your own log ^^ Would be especially nice to integrate that with the forums so you can see both sanctions sheets on one page. But yeah. |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366754940000
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Supported. |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366796640000
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/Support although you can't capture a speed hack or fly hacks, unless they get in the hole. |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366831860000
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Kredos a dit : True. This would more come in handy when it comes to other sorts of abuse :-) |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366836060000
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/support lemo really I love this, gj man but can it be disabled for wispers? Those are kept secret for a reason |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366836600000
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Support of course. Mousechris a dit : Well, if someone breaks rules it doesn't matter if it happened with whispers I guess. |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366836840000
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Judgments a dit : No There are clear rules (and mods who have said several times) that state in wispers things in wispers arnt counted Besides, you wouldn't believe the amount of "fun" i've seen in staff wispers, mods, sentinels, mapcrew, all of them. < [Adell] hi adell > [Adell] yo < [Adell] Rules that are broken in PM's arnt counted correct? Basically mods can't do anything about them? > [Adell] correct Yep |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1366837740000
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The idea as I had in mind excludes whispers. But the exact execution of an idea isn't really up to me :P |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1366924800000
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Solid suggestions, it would be good to have them made. The first suggestion would certainly both help mods determine what are real situations that require sorting out and if a ban or mute is contested, a paper trail would exist to prove beyond doubt one way or the other of the outcome. However I don't feel this would help sort out the angst and anger that is in the sort of threads you're referencing though. At least, the kind of threads that are more oriented towards general mod conduct. ^^' A log of the chat or a screenshot gives definitive proof of what happened but it doesn't remove the mod judgement that's necessary when applying the rules to the situation, and from what I read and remember from most mod hot-topic threads this seems to be the biggest issue. Take the homphobia/racism rule for example. In most cases it's never what is directly said that is the problem but how it is interpreted. Mods have to make decisions depending on the circumstances, and some people will disagree with the ruling either because they feel what they said truly wasn't breaking the rules. Sometimes they go further, i'm sure you remember enough threads to get the picture. =p Anyway i'm going off topic here. The point is, log submitting tool or no-log submitting tool we're likely to still see threads like the most recent one posted. People just like to disagree I guess. =/ Still, i'm being too harsh on the suggestion. It would help like you've said in giving the people the power to report incidences accurately that can be trusted by mods as definitive, and that's a good enough feat in itself. |
![]() ![]() « Consul » 1494946320000
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/support Status: true |
![]() ![]() « Citoyen » 1494953460000
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/support definitely |
![]() ![]() « Consul » 1494960540000
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/support |
![]() ![]() « Censeur » 1495062840000
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/support surprised that this thread managed to move back so much smh Perhaps it can be used for /tribunal as well? Though, of course, the names would be censored somehow, much like the mechanics /tribunal's gameplay itself already Dernière modification le 1495062900000 |