This is a discussion of itself and as such is a separate topic from Topic-340606 where updates, suggestions, feedback etc. regarding Bafflua are posted.


The initial concept behind Bafflua was a minigame with very quick, short, and tiny mini-minigames that could not constitute their own room. The sum of these mini-minigames would form a working and fast-paced arcade of minigames while still having other rooms for full-fledged games.


Problem 1: Monopolization

Bafflua now takes essentially any idea that hasn't been done (and even some that have, such as FFA which was essentially a clone of #deathmatch) and incorporates them into itself. This would be fine if these ideas couldn't stand independently, but many can, and simply because nobody has had the time to code them does constitute adding them to the Bafflua paradigm.

You can tell these minigames are added simply to add them, and not as a core functionality of Bafflua by the "minigame rooms" where you can play a specific minigame included in Bafflua and no others. In the original model, a Bafflua mini-minigame should not be a minigame capable of supporting itself, thus the "minigame rooms" contradict the core concept behind Bafflua and exist only to absorb independent concepts into Bafflua, then serve them in a sub-module which should not exist.


Problem 2: Tool Functionality

The minigame module is specifically for minigame, and it has been explicitly stated that anything that is not a minigame will not be added to the module. This includes "tools" such as testing or personal rooms (concepts that have been denied long before Bafflua). Bafflua has snuck under the radar and incorporated these tool functionalities into a module. It features "personal rooms" where you are the moderator, which have nothing to do with Bafflua as a minigame and serve only to smuggle this functionality into official module and serve it to all players in all rooms. This functionality should not exist in the official module whatsoever, and hiding behind the guise of a minigame is not an exception.


Your discussion: whether you agree or disagree with the material provided above, what your definition of a full or mini-minigame is, whether the module should be expanded to accomodate tool functionality.

[2]
Makes sense
/support

Fxie a dit :

This would be fine if these ideas couldn't stand independently, but many can

agree

Fxie a dit :

This is a discussion of itself and as such is a separate topic from Topic-340606 where updates, suggestions, feedback etc. regarding Bafflua are posted.


The initial concept behind Bafflua was a minigame with very quick, short, and tiny mini-minigames that could not constitute their own room. The sum of these mini-minigames would form a working and fast-paced arcade of minigames while still having other rooms for full-fledged games.


Problem 1: Monopolization

Bafflua now takes essentially any idea that hasn't been done (and even some that have, such as FFA which was essentially a clone of #deathmatch) and incorporates them into itself. This would be fine if these ideas couldn't stand independently, but many can, and simply because nobody has had the time to code them does constitute adding them to the Bafflua paradigm.

You can tell these minigames are added simply to add them, and not as a core functionality of Bafflua by the "minigame rooms" where you can play a specific minigame included in Bafflua and no others. In the original model, a Bafflua mini-minigame should not be a minigame capable of supporting itself, thus the "minigame rooms" contradict the core concept behind Bafflua and exist only to absorb independent concepts into Bafflua, then serve them in a sub-module which should not exist.


Problem 2: Tool Functionality

The minigame module is specifically for minigame, and it has been explicitly stated that anything that is not a minigame will not be added to the module. This includes "tools" such as testing or personal rooms (concepts that have been denied long before Bafflua). Bafflua has snuck under the radar and incorporated these tool functionalities into a module. It features "personal rooms" where you are the moderator, which have nothing to do with Bafflua as a minigame and serve only to smuggle this functionality into official module and serve it to all players in all rooms. This functionality should not exist in the official module whatsoever, and hiding behind the guise of a minigame is not an exception.


Your discussion: whether you agree or disagree with the material provided above, what your definition of a full or mini-minigame is, whether the module should be expanded to accomodate tool functionality.

other official minigames has testing incorporated into them. bafflua isnt the only one.

one could see bafflua as a minigame collection o-o

Interesting perspective, full support.

Paperonaruto a dit :

other official minigames has testing incorporated into them. bafflua isnt the only one.

one could see bafflua as a minigame collection o-o

Testing minigame-specific maps of course makes perfect sense, but "testing" maps in general (in such a way as the unofficial *#test) should not be bundled in with the minigame as it is not a part of the minigame and not a minigame itself. Of course, this is only a subcomponent of the "personal rooms" which are completely unallowed in the module altogether.


I actually believe it'd be a good idea for every minigale to feature a similar room template specifically for minigame-related map testing where necessary, such as #deploy0test to test maps with deploy features or #derby0test to test maps that can only be tested with the features present in derby. This particular purpose is a great idea, so long as it doesn't turn into a "personal room."

Fxie a dit :

Testing minigame-specific maps of course makes perfect sense, but "testing" maps in general (in such a way as the unofficial *#test) should not be bundled in with the minigame as it is not a part of the minigame and not a minigame itself. Of course, this is only a subcomponent of the "personal rooms" which are completely unallowed in the module altogether.


I actually believe it'd be a good idea for every minigale to feature a similar room template specifically for minigame-related map testing where necessary, such as #deploy0test to test maps with deploy features or #derby0test to test maps that can only be tested with the features present in derby. This particular purpose is a great idea, so long as it doesn't turn into a "personal room."

non i clearly remember shamousey got that testing maps in general idea from another game @_@

General map "testing" (rather playing) has always been an idea, since a bot ran a room for it before Lua was a thing. It should never be included in an official module, though. It has nothing to do with minigames, it's just a "tool" functionality.

If it exists in any other, it certainly shouldn't. Bafflua is the most prominent example of it, though.

Fxie a dit :

General map "testing" (rather playing) has always been an idea, since a bot ran a room for it before Lua was a thing. It should never be included in an official module, though. It has nothing to do with minigames, it's just a "tool" functionality.

If it exists in any other, it certainly shouldn't. Bafflua is the most prominent example of it, though.

I dont think its allowed to stand alone by itself *having a map testing module without anything else*

but if its part of a minigame module its fine @_@

Explicitly for minigame-related maps

You are forgetting about the main idea that this stems from, though: personal rooms.

I've said testing maps for the minigame is a good idea, the personal rooms (aka public tribe house) and such are not and shouldn't exist. When I mentioned "testing" I meant general: INTENDED for UNRELATED map playing, exactly like the test room. I probably shouldn't have used that general example since it leaves room for cherrypicking; consider personal rooms the central example of tool functionality instead.


On the topic of monopolization

Paperonaruto a dit :

one could see bafflua as a minigame collection o-o

Where does it end, though? This is why I mentioned "mini-minigames": these are the sort of minigames that constitute incorporation into bafflua. If literally every minigame was put into it, though, there would be absolutely no point to the module at all: it would all just be bafflua. #deathmatch would be moved to #bafflua0deathmatch, #traitor would be moved to #bafflua0traitor - minigames that can function independently - that is, any minigame that could be added to the module itself - should not be added to bafflua. Only minigames that are too small and simple for officialisation should be included.

Fxie a dit :

Where does it end, though? This is why I mentioned "mini-minigames": these are the sort of minigames that constitute incorporation into bafflua. If literally every minigame was put into it, though, there would be absolutely no point to the module at all: it would all just be bafflua. #deathmatch would be moved to #bafflua0deathmatch, #traitor would be moved to #bafflua0traitor - minigames that can function independently - that is, any minigame that could be added to the module itself - should not be added to bafflua. Only minigames that are too small and simple for officialisation should be included.

not supporting or not not supporting, but which "mini-minigames" do you propose should be out?

I've heard before that some people feel this way about bafflua. Partially I understand. However, I don't think this is a problem for the players, but one for whoever wants to code a new minigame.

As far as I'm concerned having a large number of module rooms only means that none of these minigames are cool enough to actually fill a room. In that sense bafflua does something very right. There's something in there for everyone and as such the rooms are filled which makes these very minigames more fun to play.

At the same time there's a downside to this. Assimilate enough of (other people's) ideas into one single room and you start scaring people away: It's going to be too tricky for players to figure out what they have to do (1) and you're bound to eventually implement something players hate enough to leave the room alone (2).

This thread is the result of another downside. As far as I understood, LUA people were supposed to operate as a team. There is little team spirit in both sides of this. Assimilating everyone's ideas (with little notice judging by the fact Baffler requested several of his ideas to be taken out) into your own code is plain rude, but instead of fighting it you could all also be trying to join in. Make one great minigame with the entire team so to speak. The point I'm making is that the approach taken to create Bafflua also divides the LUA team, wasting the time and resources of the few people capable and willing to code something cool for the community. The fact that Bafflua is an official module probably doesn't help solving the argument, but I do believe it's an official module because it's a nice room for players. How it exactly was created should not be a factor when it comes to picking official modules.

As for the rule breaking, I don't know what features are currently implemented. I can tell you that private rooms have been very much wanted by the players for as long as I can remember. Once again, is this a problem for players or for people trying to make their own fancy module rooms?

The way I see it, these rules apparently aren't (consistently) enforced, and this 'monopolization' you talk about will resolve itself. This is my opinion so pls dont ban for having opinion (c) cookiecrunch 2013

Bafflua's main rooms actually are staggered by the unfitting, "fuller" minigames that play and throw everyone out of the rhythm that was intended for it. I tried it out after Shamousey ran away with the code I wrote and made it official, and things like vampire maps and "racecamps" (short for bootcamp, but annoyingly long for bafflua) completely threw me off, and that's because those sort of things simply don't belong there: they belong in their own rooms, and their own rooms do not need a #bafflua0prefix.

A line has to be drawn, because like I said just previously, you could essentially turn the module into nothing but bafflua and that isn't the way it should be.


As for private rooms: whether or not the players want it, it's something that has been done and denied for the module before because it is not a minigame. It has nothing to do with bafflua and simply doesn't belong there. Its presence there is essentially "smuggling" that feature into module with no relation to the minigame itself.

I think private rooms should either exist as their own module or not at all, not as a rider on something completely different.

Which parts of a module fit and which don't really is personal taste. Baffler and Shamousey are two different persons with their own ideas so of course it was going to be different when he took over. Once again, had this been worked out as a team (for which everyone on lua is responsible I might add), maybe an agreement as to what "is" and what "isn't" part of bafflua could have been reached.

As for the private rooms issue, stating here, on the forums, that rules are being broken won't do anyone any good. If you feel it's breaking the rules, confront those who should be enforcing them. In this case I believe that would be Sydoline.

I don't think you could turn the module into nothing but bafflua. The more stuff you cram into one room the messier it is going to be. People will want certain combinations of games and although you're trying to say just that by stating some things are unfitting for bafflua, I think insisting that a line should be drawn is misguided. On one hand you have suggestions to improve bafflua. They should be addressed to Shamousey, or put up as a discussion for LUA team members. On the other hand you believe parts of the module are breaking the rules. This should be addressed to Sydoline.

Fxie a dit :

Where does it end, though? This is why I mentioned "mini-minigames": these are the sort of minigames that constitute incorporation into bafflua.
...
minigames that can function independently - that is, any minigame that could be added to the module itself - should not be added to bafflua. Only minigames that are too small and simple for officialisation should be included.

its basically a room to play many minigames at once without having to change rooms o-o.

kinda like how baffbot used to work?

Lemodile a dit :

Which parts of a module fit and which don't really is personal taste. Baffler and Shamousey are two different persons with their own ideas so of course it was going to be different when he took over. Once again, had this been worked out as a team (for which everyone on lua is responsible I might add), maybe an agreement as to what "is" and what "isn't" part of bafflua could have been reached.

Wouldn't you say that agreement would be best established on the forums? The people can express what they feel does and does not belong. For instance: many people may use those individual game rooms, and for all the wrong reasons: they just want that game, not as a part of bafflua but for the game itself.

I imagine the suggester of #spawnzones would likely fit that example. I can't see that functioning well as a fast-paced pickup-as-you-go member of bafflua.

Paperonaruto a dit :

its basically a room to play many minigames at once without having to change rooms o-o.

kinda like how baffbot used to work?

I honestly have no idea what you're responding to when you quote the whole post.

Not everything should be included, lest the entire module become bafflua. Ask yourself: where should the line be drawn? Bafflua included FFA before, which was essentially #deathmatch. That's a minigame that supports itself independently, and as such should not be included (which it isn't now).

In my experience most agreements between members of a certain team are reached most easily in private, set up by someone who's actually a part of said team. Plus TFM has a large history when it comes to handling issues in private.

No disrespect intended, but the Lua team isn't exactly the most delicately picked bunch. Random people just happen to be on it, others like myself are not, but given I coded bafflua from the ground up I'd say my say fits in such discussion.

That's another topic, though. I think this is a discussion the community would be best suited for, especially since the only people likely to even read far enough to reply are people with geniune input. I'm sure if we tried to establish these lines ourselves instead of discussing who should we'd make good progress for Shamousey and other Lua members to pick up from.

Fxie a dit :

Not everything should be included, lest the entire module become bafflua. Ask yourself: where should the line be drawn? Bafflua included FFA before, which was essentially #deathmatch. That's a minigame that supports itself independently, and as such should not be included (which it isn't now).

sure thats true but it really felt like you said no games should ever be included in it.
clearly it shouldnt be just filled with games that are already free standing but i guess its best to phase them out for more original games.

If that's the case I guess I'll just repeat Bigcrushes' question: which "mini-minigames" do you propose should be out? So far I've heard race-camp, what else?