That's right, it's time for another random Fewfre thread!

So, I've randomly brought this up a few times, and figured I should make a thread on it. I don't have high hopes this will happen, but hope the admins will consider it.

The idea: Make Fortoresse open source so the community can help make it better.

Open Source: "Generally, open source refers to a computer program in which the source code is available to the general public for use and/or modification from its original design. Open-source code is meant to be a collaborative effort, where programmers improve upon the source code and share the changes within the community. Typically this is not the case, and code is merely released to the public under some license. Others can then download, modify, and publish their version (fork) back to the community. Today you find more projects with forked versions than unified projects worked by large teams." ~Wikipedia

For those who don't really know how open source contributions works, a quick way to learn is to go to the [url=
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Introduction]Firefox contributors help page[/url] and just skim the headings / steps. Basically, someone edits code, submits the code to be reviewed by the official source, and if they like it (bug free, fits their ideals, etc) it will be added to the official repo. Open source projects also contain some type of license, saying something like the code may not be used for commercial / monetary use without permission, or any modified code used in a public setting must also be open source so people may improve on it / confirm it doesn't contain dangerous code.

Next I will outline various pro, cons, and concerns for us and Atelier 801 (as I see it).

Pros:

• Free labor - While they would still have to check the changes and make sure code is safe / efficient (not necessarily a super easy task in some cases), the community would provide potential updates. While players could submit their own proposals for the game, staff could also outline specific updates they have in mind, so that the community could jointly work on "officially" desired updates, so people don't make 50 different competing ideas going in various directions.
• Community involvement - This will also bring the community into the game making process, much like modules do on Transformice. This will keep the community exited, and let them feel a bit more attached and in control of the game.
• Updates! - While a bi-product of the above two, the main purpose for Fortoresse being open source is of course to see new updates / bug fixes. and since they would have to be reviewed by staff before being implemented, things wouldn't get to far out of control.

Cons:

• Loss of control - Even if they include a license, having the code publicly available will increase the ease of using the code for your own purposes, and clones popping up. They could make the project open source to a select view (kinda like the map crew, but instead the open source crew), but there's still an increased potential for code to leak. (For Atelier 801) It can also just suck seeing your own code released to the public and go in a different direction than you intended.
• Need to separate Fortoresse code from rest of code base - just saying it should be open source is well and good, but Fortoresse not only uses the same code base as Transformice, but includes security features that should not be made public. while it may sound simply to separate all these things, it's a harder division than it may sound. This is especially true if they want it to be playable while testing, which is really a no-brainer requirement.
• Hackers - having an open codebase increase the ease for hacker to find exploits and ways around the system. If dedicated devs are on top of things this may result on a stronger code base as people fix found exploits, but this again isn't as easy as it sounds.

Concerns:

• Code base - Touched on above, releasing code would require separating out sensitive information from the rest of the code. However! One possible solution for this may already be in the works; Module 801. While not a super lot is know about it yet, and it doesn't seem to connect to community platform at all yet, it basically attempted to solve these issues by allowing you to access the code base/library using an api key, and use it to run your program in the Transformice/Atelier 801 engine. I'm not sure how practical it is for Fortoresse to run in Module 801, but it could be an interesting project. We could even make a Fortoresse 2.0 with cats; as Elisah the Goddess Shaman originally intended! (jk... sorta)
• Code access - Again as touched on above, another issue is if the code should actually be completely open source, or perhaps accessible to a trusted few, kinda like map crew / other Atelier 801 "groups". We would then have a thread dedicated to people requesting access to code base, and they could be tested on their knowledge of programming, and involvement in the community (no necessarily talking, but if they actually play the game and don't hack)

Now I'm sure there are multiple, various things I have not considered (as well as the fact I'm sure I'm understating how much effort this would actually take on their part to implement), but as with all my threads I feel it's a topic that warrants discussion outside of hushed whispers within game / offhand in other threads. Hate, love, or just be confused by this topic, and please post and discuss!

Ok.....................

Well, interesting idea but knowing Tigrounette this won't happen even if hell freezes over ;-)

The main point against this idea is probably "loss of control" which you already have identified. It only takes one person to ship the code out, replace the graphics, recode some community stuff (chat, etc) and voila you have a clone. That clone might even run on more stable servers and better but will easily divide the (already small) community.

About Module 801: At least in mid 2014 they said that they don't want similar Atelier801 games with it (discussion with module team members) but otherwise this is an excellent idea.
This view might change for fortoresse in the future, who knows?

Moepl a dit :

That clone might even run on more stable servers and better but will easily divide the (already small) community.

It may split it a bit, but without the ability to connect to Atelier 801 community platform, I think most people would prefer to use the official version (so long as it's updated, the official version of something usually keeps the core of the fanbase in my experience, with the offshoot often capturing the interest of those who otherwise would not bother to play anymore). But the Fortoresse community is small, so I guess I can see the concern that all the "active" players might decide to ban together and migrate to a new server. Still fun to think/talk/hope about though :)

I think that the fans would only stick to the official version because the active updates that will be available frequently. Meanwhile just how many people would actually sit down waste their time and constantly input new codes? That must be sad life. And even if they do where is the profit in it? They'll lose interest in updating a private server. Just take a look at the tfm private servers, their crap quality, laggy, and not very fun to play.

So in my opinion this would be just a good idea. I don't know if the ideas would be approved by the community, some of the ideas such as power ups are horrible if you look on the long run. Just like bouboum the idea did not work out. I'm not an expert on these coding stuff or open source but i would recommend something to allow a certain code pass a test. It would be approved by the community or people who believe that they are experienced enough to volunteer in a tribunal.

Similarly to what Holistergo said, coding is not a very fun thing to do (I have experience), and I know for a fact that it can take a long time to code a simple map. If somebody actually sat down and coded it, then the tests it would have to pass....*shudders*. If this coded map actually passes tests, then it should be inserted into gameplay maps. However, there should be a little pop-up type thingy after each round, sort of like the ones in Transformice, asking if players like that map. This is my personal opinion, but I feel that users should be able to play a role in their beloved game.

I think I'd support something like this.

There has to be a team that accepts new maps and skins and changes to weapon balance. The code should only be open source to this team every 2 weeks or so, maybe a little longer so updates aren't so frequent. But the team is necessary so the code doesn't get messed around with too quickly.

holistergo a dit :

I'm not an expert on these coding stuff or open source but i would recommend something to allow a certain code pass a test. It would be approved by the community or people who believe that they are experienced enough to volunteer in a tribunal.

I agree. A code test is a 100% requirement; it won't work without it.

As far as being approved by the community, it would most likely still need to be approved by the Atelier 801 at the end to make sure the game doesn't go to far from their direction. Atelier 801 could also look at suggestions, green flag some for "official" updates, and let us work on it, in conjunction with community-proposed updates.

Masterkaren a dit :

Similarly to what Holistergo said, coding is not a very fun thing to do (I have experience), and I know for a fact that it can take a long time to code a simple map. If somebody actually sat down and coded it, then the tests it would have to pass....*shudders*. If this coded map actually passes tests, then it should be inserted into gameplay maps. However, there should be a little pop-up type thingy after each round, sort of like the ones in Transformice, asking if players like that map. This is my personal opinion, but I feel that users should be able to play a role in their beloved game.

Coding isn't fun to some. I actually do it for a living, and occasionally even for fun. That's part of why open source projects work! Getting community/admins willing to code review will probably be a bottleneck, but could work if done right (limit who can access code, have others with access to code review it first, then submit to Atelier 801 to review it for code review and for making sure it's an update they want.

Note: this isn't just for maps; I'm saying open source code base, not a in-game lua system (I'm totes for that though!), so voting wouldn't really be possible for all updates.

solfn a dit :

There has to be a team that accepts new maps and skins and changes to weapon balance. The code should only be open source to this team every 2 weeks or so, maybe a little longer so updates aren't so frequent. But the team is necessary so the code doesn't get messed around with too quickly.

I think we would definitely need a community team (to prevent flood of questionable updates reaching Atelier 801), but then I think Atelier 801 should green light the proposed changes. This would help prevent community warring about the direction of the game, as well as Atelier 801 still having final say/direction in what is released to a live version. I would imagine if Atelier 801 did this they would be somewhat accepting of small changes (skins, maps, tweaks to ui, fun cosmetic updates, events, etc), but would be helpful in making sure random updates don't end up in the game (supposedly the community team would stop most of these before this is needed). But since others would do the work, they may green-light updates they wouldn't bother with themselves (dev time vs payoff), and allow us to add updates they like but don't have development time for.

ex: part of team loves the idea of cosmetic wings, while the other part says they are deranged lunatics. The wings team ends up submitting their idea (either bypassing other part of team, or wearing them down), and Atelier 801 decides if they think it's actually an idea that would fit the game.

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As an aside, Chromium code submissions (open source code Chrome uses) states this: "Whether you're writing a new feature or fixing an existing bug, it pays to get a second opinion before you get too far. If it's a new feature idea, post to the appropriate discussion group and propose it."

I feel this addresses a bit how I envision it working, but with an extra step; coders would have sub-forum to propose / discuss updates and talk about code (this sub-forum and code may or may not only be available to "official coders", depending how truly open source it will be). Once you've (hopefully) discussed it, gotten input and collaborated with others who have messed with the code previously, changes can be worked on and submitted for review by community/official community reviewers (both for code and obvious issues of in-game implementation). Then Atelier 801 would check to make sure the update isn' malicious / a "bad" idea / full of waaay to many bugs, and submit the changes if it's accepted.

For analogy lovers like me: Dentists. You (the person submitting code) go to the dentist to see how well you've done last 6 months. A dental hygienist (community team) does a check and cleans your teeth (points out flaws in your idea / what needs to be cleaned up). When the hygienist is done, they summon the dentist (Atelier 801) for a final review. The dentist looks a pokes around, cleaning stuff if still needed, and either lets you go on your merry way, or tells you your mouth is full of cavities (bugs/"bad" ideas) and you need all your teeth pulled.

That was a creepy reference right there ^^^

Anyway, coding for a game might be fun, I'm not sure how coding a game works, because I've been doing medical coding (not great).

If this were something that might happen, I would definitely support this change.