Jeliez a dit :

I adore vanilla rooms. It’s my favorite mode next to racing. I currently have only 4 saves on Divine mode (which I’ve had for a quite while from playing in a small room with friends ages ago) because I played strictly using a trackpad on my laptop. Now - while it’s great and fun to build … moving quickly to your inventory on a trackpad isn’t easy, but yeah - I’m not the best with Divine because I don’t use it regularly - which is why I was baffled by people so pissed about the loss of skills to begin with (especially since higher levels use it more often, most citing that they have a mouse as opposed to a trackpad.) That being said - all I was stating was that “building” without skills was doable. I said that multiple time through my post. Lack of skills doesn’t hinder the building process, because even though I don’t use Divine mode regularly, I was still able to BUILD a way from the cheese to the hole. It was was harder, but possible.

Yup. It's not impossible to construct. Just unfair taking in account all the things I said above.

Jeliez a dit :

On hardmode, which is what I use (and no, I don’t use my totem because it’s a damn ferris wheel) I’ get anywhere between 3 to 4 sham coins. Now hardmode - it’s glitchy af during events. The snow, certain maps, and don’t get me started on throwables (which I love but hate from time to time) can be a pain in the ass and make it worse. Snowballs kill a lot of mice … divine mode wasn’t the only MODE AFFECTED by loss of the skilltree. I can’t rev my five mice. I can’t teleport my three mice. I can’t use my cleats to stand on awkwardly placed planks easier anymore …but it is what it is. The lack of the skilltree forced me to actually build carefully instead of rely on springs or teles.

Of course it affected all modes. I didn't said the opposite. Just emphasized the divine mode because it was the "greatly" affected. And I understand that you like it because it's more challenging. I get it that when the skills return, you won't use them, huh? And yeah, so, it shouldn't be forced to others to not use it :p

Jeliez a dit :

I’m not hating on the loss of skills because I had the opportunist skill and like Amizko stated prior in what they said “noobs don’t understand the concept of skills” so if I give cheese to the noob scrambling their way to the hole, and I start to rev and they make it in, I miss out on those saves anyway. I’m not that heartbroken it was only five mice … in rooms that are usually full of 26/27 or more. No big deal … TO ME ANYWAY. I liked it.

Good you're not hating. However you agree to it, as I think. Good to know you miss them too. And yeah, it's in your opinion. If you like it that way, good. But it wasn't necessary to remove the shaman skills, given that you could easily not use your skills.
I guess to that you should argue with me.

Jeliez a dit :

Whoa …did you forget what you posted to me earlier?

I don't get the point. Yes, it's an unfair fight. But even so, and I didn't said the opposite, the shaman high-leveled shouldn't give up his saves just out of pity. Removing the skills for that is exageration.

Jeliez a dit :

Don’t try to ride the fence, it’s not fun. Neither is backtracking on your responses to others so you can sound relevant in a completely different conversation.

I decided to answer something you were arguing with him because I didn't agree 100% to it. So, given this is a forum, I guess I can do that, lol. And I don't see where I "backtracked" on my responses.

Jeliez a dit :

It wasn’t “in theory” because everyone that used skills were affected by the change, no matter what mode they currently used and as I stated and will state for the last time - all I was saying, was building was still doable on divine - which several people wanted removed entirely if the skills were gone - but it wouldn’t stop people from building with V nails … because they’re used to using them. It seemed pointless to remove that mode if people could still build with it. Others are supposed to miss out because people are complaining?

It’s not different than me saying no skills are okay, but I forget, I guess only those on divine are entitled to have opinions on skills that were implemented before divine, that people still GOT USED TO USING. See?

Let's see:
1. I said that Divine Mode became unfair. But anyone can use it, sure, and have fun. But besides the desire to build, it's great to see good rewards for using such an advanced mode (like more saves, more shaman coins, etc)
2. About "removing the divine mode", you can disregard what I said. Perhaps it was exaggeration.
And now,
3. People that use divine mode were greatly affected. That's why we can very well focus on them, than the others. However, I'm not saying that people that use other modes shouldn't have an opinion. In fact, it just depends..it's just what you have said. Just like you said "hard/normal mode players can't have an opinion", I can say that "divine mode players can't have an opinion". Because after all, we're the ones most affected, so it's unfair for the other players to ignore it, lol. An opinion that doesn't take in account the need of others doesn't seem that important.
"Got used to using" However there's no joy (besides to construct with difficulty) in using divine when there's a high probability of only getting 1 cheese coin. Yes, it's doable, but unnecessary to remove the skills just for it.
What is your point, in the end? You said that it's doable. Yeah, I already said it is. Now, I see that you said that you liked the change. I can see why. But do you consider it fair?

Jeliez a dit :

I never said that people shouldn’t play in vanilla if they’re higher level. I’m just saying some aspects may seem unfair which could be why it was removed for the event. Obviously everyone’s input matters, even the minority of the game.

It's more unfair to remove them entirely. Principally just because of 10% of vanilla maps. Unfair only because of the cases where the "fight between shamans" is between a pro and a nub? Seriously? Just because of that we need to take the skills out that way? The majority disliked the idea, and yes, the minority's opinions can matter, but remember that we can't satisfy everyone. So, it's better to at least hear and satisfy the majority, right?

@Jeliez

I never said you said that those people shouldn't play vanilla. I said you're saying how it's ''not fair'' if high level shamans kill low level shamans. It's completely fail because high level shamans WORKED for their SKILLS and their LEVEL.

And the reason why they kill the other shaman isn't because they want ''easy saves'' but because they want all the saves for themselves. Which is selfish but not always. If its a dual shaman map they can fight if they want to. And it's completely fair if a low level shaman loses to a high level one. The skills shouldn't be force removed from everyone because people worked for them, that's what's not fair.

And also it's not in any way right to listen to the MINORITY over the MAJORITY of other people. The majority of people dislikes this no skills update for reasons.
To disable skills should be an OPTION if anyone is looking for a bit of a challenge. Or you could've just also simply redistributed your skills and not upgrade them. That's why it's also not fair to just take them away from everyone, because they already could've been removed by redistributing.
And I understand that always someone is not going to like something but if the MAJORITY dislikes something then something should be done about it. And never listen to the minority over the majority.

@Puredragons...

You backtracked on what you said regarding dual sham maps being unfair, removing skills for that particular set of maps, and agreeing that some players would feel entitled and justify using their skills on noobs.

I wasn't referring to the entirety of your post, just that specific part because it's what you commented on originally regarding Amizko's post.

Then you turn around and say it's completely unfair to the higher levels that earned it to remove skills on dual..etc..

Pick a side and stay. So, sorry to tell you, but you were straddling the fence.

Tell me, freezing a level 19 then using a canon isn't considered an easy kill? 130's aren't in that desperate need for saves, if that was the case, they wouldn't start offing mice that refuse to go to their hole. That's just being petty on the sham's part. And most of the time, depending on which map they get, the higher level ends up killing over half their saves with the cannon anyways.

Do I see the change as fair?
Yes.

Why?
Because it wasn't a change that solely affected one specific mode.

Vanilla maps are the same over and over. In divine, hard mode, even easy, you adapt to those maps. You learn what build works best for each map. It's not like in reg rooms where maps change and you don't know if you're going to get an art map, teleport, luck map, or racing..it's literally the same thing over and over.
It's hard for me to feel a heavy loss to the divine users, when nearly everyone relied on skills at some point and they no longer have them or the perks they offered.
It's hard for me to feel a heavy loss to the divine users, when nearly everyone relied on skills at some point and they no longer have them or the perks they offered.
I don't have skills anymore, I can't save them all of they die, but I can still get my 2/3/4 sham coins from the ones that lived.

It's just not that detrimental to me to the point that I'm angry of a temporary thing during the holidays.

@Amizko

I said it can be seen as an unfair advantage to a noob that knows zero about the concept of skills and why that mouse can freeze and they can't.

Whether it was earned or not, it's not really a level playing field when noobs are specifically introduced into those rooms.

---

Also, I'm not an admin. I'm not sure why things got removed other than the reasonings stated on the first page of this thread.


But hey, I like vanilla, and I'll play there still so no big deal.

-----
TL;DR

I don't care if the skills were removed. Divine users didn't lost the same skills that It's my opinion. Yes, I used rev, cleats, tp, and chief's cheese..yeah, it's weird not having them, but oh well. I can still get my 1-4 coins and get my cheese. c:

*Wait, I wanna fix this post*

Jeliez a dit :

@Puredragons...

You backtracked on what you said regarding dual sham maps being unfair, removing skills for that particular set of maps, and agreeing that some players would feel entitled and justify using their skills on noobs.

I wasn't referring to the entirety of your post, just that specific part because it's what you commented on originally regarding Amizko's post.

Then you turn around and say it's completely unfair to the higher levels that earned it to remove skills on dual..etc..

Pick a side and stay. So, sorry to tell you, but you were straddling the fence.

Tell me, freezing a level 19 then using a canon isn't considered an easy kill? 130's aren't in that desperate need for saves, if that was the case, they wouldn't start offing mice that refuse to go to their hole. That's just being petty on the sham's part. And most of the time, depending on which map they get, the higher level ends up killing over half their saves with the cannon anyways.

Do I see the change as fair?
Yes.

Why?
Because it wasn't a change that solely affected one specific mode. The removal of tp, chief's cheese, and rev affected everyone that played in those rooms regularly and were used to getting certain numbers of things.

Vanilla maps are the same over and over. In divine, hard mode, even easy, you adapt to those maps. You learn what build works best for each map. It's not like in reg rooms where maps change and you don't know if you're going to get an art map, teleport, luck map, or racing..it's literally the same thing over and over. It's hard for me to feel a heavy loss to the divine users, when nearly everyone relied on skills at some point and they no longer have them or the perks they offered.

I don't have skills anymore, I can't save them all of they die, but I can still get my 2/3/4 sham coins from the ones that lived.

It's just not that detrimental to me to the point that I'm angry of a temporary thing during the holidays.

@Amizko

I said it can be seen as an unfair advantage to a noob that knows zero about the concept of skills and why that mouse can freeze and they can't.

Whether it was earned or not, it's not really a level playing field when noobs are specifically introduced into those rooms.

---

Also, I'm not an admin. I'm not sure why things got removed other than the reasonings stated on the first page of this thread.


But hey, I like vanilla, and I'll play there still so no big deal.

-----
TL;DR

I don't care if the skills were removed. It's my opinion. Yes, I used rev, cleats, tp, and chief's cheese..yeah, it's weird not having them, but oh well. I can still get my 1-4 coins and get my cheese. c:

@Jeliez *''Tell me, freezing a level 19 then using a canon isn't considered an easy kill? 130's aren't in that desperate need for saves, if that was the case, they wouldn't start offing mice that refuse to go to their hole. That's just being petty on the sham's part. And most of the time, depending on which map they get, the higher level ends up killing over half their saves with the cannon anyways.''*

Look you gotta work for saves 1 way. Again, if a high level shaman kills a low level one it's FAIR (no matter what way they kill the other shaman), because the high level shaman WORKED for his skills and the low level one didn't yet work for anything, they have time to but this is still a fair fight. Because both players should work for their skills and their level.
And I think because you don't get a lot of saves usually is why you don't understand why this update is bad for the players who do actually get a lot of saves.

Jeliez a dit :

@Puredragons...

You backtracked on what you said regarding dual sham maps being unfair, removing skills for that particular set of maps, and agreeing that some players would feel entitled and justify using their skills on noobs.

I wasn't referring to the entirety of your post, just that specific part because it's what you commented on originally regarding Amizko's post.

Then you turn around and say it's completely unfair to the higher levels that earned it to remove skills on dual..etc..

Pick a side and stay. So, sorry to tell you, but you were straddling the fence.

Tell me, freezing a level 19 then using a canon isn't considered an easy kill? 130's aren't in that desperate need for saves, if that was the case, they wouldn't start offing mice that refuse to go to their hole. That's just being petty on the sham's part. And most of the time, depending on which map they get, the higher level ends up killing over half their saves with the cannon anyways.

Do I see the change as fair?
Yes.

Why?
Because it wasn't a change that solely affected one specific mode. The removal of tp, chief's cheese, and rev affected everyone that played in those rooms regularly and were used to getting certain numbers of things.

Vanilla maps are the same over and over. In divine, hard mode, even easy, you adapt to those maps. You learn what build works best for each map. It's not like in reg rooms where maps change and you don't know if you're going to get an art map, teleport, luck map, or racing..it's literally the same thing over and over. It's hard for me to feel a heavy loss to the divine users, when nearly everyone relied on skills at some point and they no longer have them or the perks they offered.

I don't have skills anymore, I can't save them all of they die, but I can still get my 2/3/4 sham coins from the ones that lived.

It's just not that detrimental to me to the point that I'm angry of a temporary thing during the holidays.

Well well
"Then you turn around and say it's completely unfair to the higher levels that earned it to remove skills on dual..etc.."
Where did I said that?
I said that it was unfair to remove the skills on vanilla. Not on dual. On dual, it coud be fair. If it were JUST on dual, instead of taking it out completely.
So yeah. This fight between shamans could be unfair, however, it's not because that the shaman is level 130+ that he shouldn't care to increase his experience. The max level is 888, you know. So it's not "petty", lol. Anyone plays how they want, and if there are "fights" between shamans, and if they are unfair depending on their luck, then the admins must do something about it. But removing the skills is not the option, as I said multiple times. It's e x a g e r a t i o n.
"Because it wasn't a change that solely affected one specific mode. " -> "Vanilla maps are the same over and over. In divine, hard mode, even easy, you adapt to those maps."
Let me show you something that has been said MULTIPLE TIMES:

Amizko a dit :

I understand that removing the skills can give more 'challenge' to players in vanilla but as I said, it shouldn't be FORCED onto everyone.]

It is unfair because of several reasons:
>The noobs die way too easily and we can't rev them. This can become frustating for newbies and make them stop playing the game.
>Greatly unfair on divine, since we can only rarely get 3 coins (so it's really 1% of chance of we getting 5 coins, to not say under 1)
>We worked for the skills, and now they're completely useless. We payed our cheese on them too to redistribute the skills. I'm not obliged to play normal mode, nor will I. It was the worst change they really made at Christmas/New Year.
"It's just not that detrimental to me to the point that I'm angry of a temporary thing during the holidays."
We already know your position. However, you should agree that it's unfair basing on the points mentioned. You literally said nothing that justifies this change. And above everything else, this change was made at the time that many players came back to play again.
I'll say it one last time. No one should be obliged to not use the skills just to feel it challenging. If YOU want it challenging, just don't use the skills. Now, the others aren't supposed to have the same likings as yours. And furthermore, it's vanilla. Vanilla is supposed to be easy, so there isn't any problem in it being "too easy". If you want it hard, play it in the challengest way possible, but don't force others to it.

That's why it is unfair and you should accept it as unfair, unless you still have valid arguments.
"I don't care if the skills were removed. It's my opinion. Yes, I used rev, cleats, tp, and chief's cheese..yeah, it's weird not having them, but oh well. I can still get my 1-4 coins and get my cheese. c:"
On normal rooms with 20 mices, 4 coins are surely very hard, and 3 are really hard to get. Either with divine, normal or easy mode, xd.
And you get my point. Don't just miss it and begin giving useless excuses to justify your insignificant opinion regarding this stupid change.

@Amizko

You wanna dislike what I have to say ... because I don't agree with it, fine. That's cool, because opinions, although not always necessary or regarded as popular are important. it shows the differences of people and how they operate.

You want to personally attack me and my ability to sham based on posts I make - that's taking it a little too far. You can dislike my opinion, but don't berate me because I disagree. ----

I was going to edit my original post above, but I'll leave it since I'm responding to this one.

I don't find the update unfair because Divine was put at the same disadvantage as everyone else that relied on TP, Chief's Food, and Revive. ( I call those the big three, because those are the ones people seem to miss the most.) You lost the perks of the skills, just like everyone else did, however, if you're still able to construct, build, whatever you'd like to call it, you can still save mice, earn xp, and coins. The map rotation is consistent. You don't have sudden surprises or new maps implemented into Vanilla rooms that are simply impossible to do.

Jeliez a dit :

@Amizko

You wanna dislike what I have to say ... because I don't agree with it, fine. That's cool, because opinions, although not always necessary or regarded as popular are important. it shows the differences of people and how they operate.

You want to personally attack me and my ability to sham based on posts I make - that's taking it a little too far. You can dislike my opinion, but don't berate me because I disagree. ----

I was going to edit my original post above, but I'll leave it since I'm responding to this one.

I don't find the update unfair because Divine was put at the same disadvantage as everyone else that relied on TP, Chief's Food, and Revive. ( I call those the big three, because those are the ones people seem to miss the most.) You lost the perks of the skills, just like everyone else did, however, if you're still able to construct, build, whatever you'd like to call it, you can still save mice, earn xp, and coins. The map rotation is consistent. You don't have sudden surprises or new maps implemented into Vanilla rooms that are simply impossible to do.

I'm not at all ''attacking'' you I'm just being real. If you don't get a lot of saves often or spend a lot of time on the game you are not going to understand why this update is bad.

Yes you can still construct without skills. But as Puredragons and me said it's really hard to get proper saves without skills. Because a lot of people die because they're unexperienced at the game or because they statpad. If you have revive and other things its easy to save them. And there is a lot of unexperienced people. You lose a lot of saves this way.

Jeliez a dit :

I don't find the update unfair because Divine was put at the same disadvantage as everyone else that relied on TP, Chief's Food, and Revive. ( I call those the big three, because those are the ones people seem to miss the most.) You lost the perks of the skills, just like everyone else did, however, if you're still able to construct, build, whatever you'd like to call it, you can still save mice, earn xp, and coins. The map rotation is consistent. You don't have sudden surprises or new maps implemented into Vanilla rooms that are simply impossible to do.

Let me show you my points:

Puredragons a dit :

It is unfair because of several reasons:
>The noobs die way too easily and we can't rev them. This can become frustating for newbies and make them stop playing the game.
>Greatly unfair on divine, since we can only rarely get 3 coins (so it's really 1% of chance of we getting 5 coins, to not say under 1)
>We worked for the skills, and now they're completely useless. We payed our cheese on them too to redistribute the skills. I'm not obliged to play normal mode, nor will I. It was the worst change they really made at Christmas/New Year.

And now, let's see your useless points:
>Everyone is on the same advantage now
>It's ok to be an update that is being forced into the people and changing our way of playing this game
>The maps are still doable
It doesn't justify it being "fair" to force it onto people. A 100+ leveled shaman has no reason to be put on the same advantage as a level 10 shaman. Much to the contrary. If he's got more experience, it's precisely needed to be easier for him. Because he deserves at least, or you're going to depreciate the "experience" system?
Just because they can be done, it doesn't mean that we must do them that way. We should be free to use the skills or not. It's clearly unfair.

@Puredragons

Puredragons a dit :

"Tell me, why do higher level shams at 130 go into vanilla rooms and kill level 18 players with freeze? Cause they want easy* saves."
You suppose that the high leveled shaman should suicide and give saves to the level 18 player? It's a fight, and it's not only because he's highly leveled that he mustn't make use of something he made the effort to have (great experience)

Before that, you said that putting noobs at a disadvantage that way wasn't fair. Removing skills on dual sham maps make sense. Then say this? Freeze isn't an entry level skill. It's one that's earned. I clearly stated .. so a level 130 freezing a noob level 18 and then using a cannon to kill them ... (that's just using sham skills they don't have yet to your advantage... ) Which could seem unfair to them.

That's all I'm going to say to you .. because ...both you and Amizko are legit ganging up on me in posts because I'm not agreeing that Divine is at a higher disadvantage than other modes.

@Amizko

But it's not any harder to get saves than it is for anyone else relying on the same skillset your complaining that you don't have.

Jeliez a dit :

@Puredragons

Puredragons a dit :VoirMasquer

"Tell me, why do higher level shams at 130 go into vanilla rooms and kill level 18 players with freeze? Cause they want easy* saves."
You suppose that the high leveled shaman should suicide and give saves to the level 18 player? It's a fight, and it's not only because he's highly leveled that he mustn't make use of something he made the effort to have (great experience)

Before that, you said that putting noobs at a disadvantage that way wasn't fair. Removing skills on dual sham maps make since. Then say this? Freeze isn't an entry level skill. It's one that's earned. I clearly stated .. so a level 130 freezing a noob level 18 and then using a cannon to kill them ... (that's just using sham skills they don't have yet to your advantage... ) Which could seem unfair to them.

That's all I'm going to say to you .. because ...both you and Amizko are legit ganging up on me in posts because I'm not agreeing that Divine is at a higher disadvantage than other modes.

@Amizko

But it's not any harder to get saves than it is for anyone else relying on the same skillset your complaining that you don't have.

It's harder to get saves without skills. That's clear. Don't quote me anymore because I'm not going to respond anymore. Leave me out of it now cause I'm not willing to continue with this. It's pointless to try to make it more clear to you why the update is bad.

Jeliez a dit :

@Puredragons

Puredragons a dit :VoirMasquer

"Tell me, why do higher level shams at 130 go into vanilla rooms and kill level 18 players with freeze? Cause they want easy* saves."
You suppose that the high leveled shaman should suicide and give saves to the level 18 player? It's a fight, and it's not only because he's highly leveled that he mustn't make use of something he made the effort to have (great experience)

Before that, you said that putting noobs at a disadvantage that way wasn't fair. Removing skills on dual sham maps make sense. Then say this? Freeze isn't an entry level skill. It's one that's earned. I clearly stated .. so a level 130 freezing a noob level 18 and then using a cannon to kill them ... (that's just using sham skills they don't have yet to your advantage... ) Which could seem unfair to them.

That's all I'm going to say to you .. because ...both you and Amizko are legit ganging up on me in posts because I'm not agreeing that Divine is at a higher disadvantage than other modes.

Firstly,
We're not ganging up. We're argumenting with you.
Secondly,
"I'm not agreeing that Divine is at a higher disadvantage than other modes. ". That's not it. I'm having this discussion with you because you clearly said that this change wasn't unfair. So, let's see

Jeliez a dit :

Before that, you said that putting noobs at a disadvantage that way wasn't fair. Removing skills on dual sham maps make sense. Then say this? Freeze isn't an entry level skill. It's one that's earned. I clearly stated .. so a level 130 freezing a noob level 18 and then using a cannon to kill them ... (that's just using sham skills they don't have yet to your advantage... ) Which could seem unfair to them.

Sorry to question, but are you really thinking right?
I clearly said many times:

Puredragons a dit :

Yes, it's an unfair fight. But even so, and I didn't said the opposite, the shaman high-leveled shouldn't give up his saves just out of pity. Removing the skills for that is exageration.

If you think it's wrong, then talk to the mods. And don't run away from the point.
Where is it related to the change being fair or unfair? I've clearly stated that there are multiple ways of making shaman fight fairer without having to remove the skills in this stupid way.

Merry Christmas !

Oula2004 a dit :

Hooly95 a dit :VoirMasquer

Like please?

Sure
and me ;)

Ok thank you for sharing ^^

[size=][aaaaaaaaaaaaaa/size]

só eu que não gostei do evento? '-'