Noexcuses a dit :

Isnt related to that, we used to do no b and only v builds way before the hard mode come out and they were pretty stable.

I didnt shaman for months and past 2 days been doing some tests, shaman items physics arent the same as they used to be. Probably related to the anticrash update.

It's not a stabability problem.

It's an annoying "I have to switch items or spawn an item in order to use anchors" problem

Tinysocks a dit :

Maybe it's because you're a lot more experienced now but hard mode was a big challenge when it came out so it's definitely not as easy as regular shamaning (ask anyone who recently made the transition from normal to hard mode).

I think it's just a matter of how you are 'educated' to play as a shaman. I don't think that playing without a b anchor is harder than playing with b, the thing that matter is what you are used to. But that's just my opinion, we would need studies to prove this.
Since the shaman community came up with and already got used to the no-b concept long before hard mode was implemented it turned out to be very disappointing and the totem seemed to defy the purpose of it. It felt like somebody took your not so very popular idea and published a worse version. I think a comparison to this would be something like Miley Cyrus covering some Bob Dylan song. A wonderful title but the people in charge manage to overproduce it so it 'fits' into the current pop culture.

My intention with this thread is a try to countervail this same development with the divine mode which also has its roots in the shaman community.
And I still think that the most important point is 'If it's too hard for you, don't play in divine mode, after all it is an optional mode and nobody forces you to do it.'

Also Johnlantern is talking about the follwing:

Select a plank with hotkey, press v, select the plank(or any object) again with hotkey, cannot press v in order to get an anchor (instead you get a ghost version of your plank starting at the point where the anchor would be now (at the point where the anchor is when you press v twice)). You now have to either select the plank with your cursor or select a second object with hotkey and go back to your wanted plank.

However I would not recommend fixing this because it destroys the possibility of the invisible v anchor glitch.
In case anybody is wondering what you can build with the glitch, the following:




At about 3/4 of the solid plank is an invisible v anchor. If you want to rebuild this follow these instructions (only for the invisible v anchor at 3/4 of the plank), select all objects via hotkey:
Select short plank, press c.
Align short plank on the desired object as if there would be an anchor on its right side.
Select long plank, press c (you should now see a ghost part of your plank on the right side).
Summon.

The last spring, shaman cheese, mice and shaman teleports and the easy victory skills need to be completely removed from Divine mode this is still extremely unreasonable. The 'ultimate shaman mode' is basically just 'use these skills and get at least 15 saves per map!'.

I have not seen a SINGLE shaman actually build or attempt to solve a map. They teleport to the cheese, grab a mouse with the mice teleport, and then give them a free first and proceed to use skills like revive, easy victory and shamans cheese to give all of the mice waiting at the hole or where ever the shaman is standing cheese or whatever.

If it hasn't been fixed. when the shaman dies those sort of skills reset [although in the case of revive it doesn't bring more mice back] so if the shaman is determined enough it is even easier for them too just award themselves free saves, which at this point is basically all it is.

The concept of an ultimate mode was okay in theory but the actual implication of it is really bad. An ultimate mode would have been better off allowing C and V anchors, no totems/spirit/b anchors, no shaman skills. You could have used this to bring back classic shamaning and a style of that game that really attracted most of us to play in a way that would have been challenging.

Since the inclusion of skills in any form the only time you see shaman look challenged is when you have a new player who simply doesn't understand how the controls work and even then you just learn to shaman with balloons because and springs. This stuff just came out and you have mice with like 500 and upwards Divine saves because there is no real limit to the spawn range and they can just use skills for everything.

Sydoline a dit :

Arrows will be limited to 5.

I see 10 arrows right now. 5 would be too many already but could be seen as a middle ground I think. 10 are too many. I have never seen any shaman use 10 arrows for pointing mice where they would need to go, usually it's around 1-3 anyway. 10 would be only the case for arrow anchors.

Everytime we get a new skill restriction on divine is like not letting a kid enjoy his cake at his birthday. I guess I will get 34k saves on divine and keep my normal gameplay on the hard mode. I suggest making just 1 or 2 arrows with C because 10 are so useless if you can't control them properly.

Iulianbuhai a dit :

I suggest making just 1 or 2 arrows with C

I like this idea a lot. Switch arrow V to C! I don't mind so much that people want to be able to play the mode casually. What irritates me most is how C-builds are being passed off as V-builds, which the mode was based upon. If the arrow anchors are C it will be easy to tell the difference between build types. It won't make any difference to the players the use them. It also fits with hard mode, which allows one anchor from normal mode.

LOl why should not i play this mode for the titles ?what's your problem ?

It seems to me that you did not read the whole thread. You can play it for the titles. I described "my" problem thoroughly. The problem is that the mode as it is right now is not "the new very hard much difficult mode" for players who want to save mice with "brio and cleverness" but a sloppy half-assed implementation of this very description, apologies for the coarse language.

I like having chief's food and easy victory, this is because I actually like saving mice (sucks when you die and don't collect cheese on a round) without much thought to stats. I use these skills when I've built to cheese and to hole and have everyone moving, then I go to cheese, revive the dead mice who might have died being silly, then easy victory them into the hole if there's not enough time for them to get there themselves. Yes, people may abuse these skills, but these are also skills that are necessary for the players just as much as the shaman, and it's not fair to only think about your own shamaning experience and deprive people of cheese just because you want a bit of a challenge.

The other thing I'm not liking so much at the moment is that a lot of maps simply aren't structured to allow for Divine Mode tactics, especially ones with large gaps, and nine times out of ten the moment you extend your build too far it ends up either collapsing due to the weight or else the number of items jointed cause the build to glitch out and fall to ruin. Balloons aren't really an option because I've been finding that balloons weigh down my builds and cause them to sink more than lift them up, which makes no sense whatsoever and is very annoying. They also may have the opposite effect, where an ungrounded build (as is often the case when a platform is low to the horizon and can't be wrapped around) will be carried away by one single balloon, dragging with it the twenty anvils I have latched to the build which also makes very little sense. There's too much variability in the effects of any plank that is placed, with builds unraveling at the last minute to drop far below the screen and not disappear as they are supposed to, causing immeasurable amounts of glitchy problems as the planks bounce and drag at the rest of the build. All in all, it's a fun build strategy, the arrow removal was good and bad, but v builds are only good for one thing and that is building fast on maps with lots of structures and platforms, with varying amounts of difficulty building even simple builds on maps that are soloable but offer problems for less experienced mice. I'm not sure what can be done about this, but I think that before there are any more changes to Divine Mode, these physics bugs need to be addressed and fixed so that the mode can actually work on 100% of maps instead of just 60%.

Occulus, both of your points fall under the case "If it's too hard for you, don't play it."

If there is not enough time left it's probably because you picked divine/hard mode and you needed more time than usual to finish your build. Choose normal mode and this won't happen. If the mice are not smart enough to start playing at the beginning of the round it's their own fault if they don't get into the hole.

I agree that if buildings start moving or dragging to one side is caused by a glitch, however this glitch was in the game since it was created and if it wasn't fixed by now it won't be fixed now. There's a "workaround" (or proper way of building) which is "don't overlap more than 2 objects with anchors". The only reason why this is not well known is because it's more or less negligible when you use hard mode or normal mode. But even in those modes your buildings sometimes start to move or spazz out and then people complain about "lag" when in reality they just don't know what's wrong.

Anyway, addressing your point of large gaps and the weight of mice, I'd like to present this picture:


I think the gap is large enough (most of the time there is a ground below the cheese so it's even easier to build halfway and build from the cheese side again with your huge summoning range) and the anvil is a placeholder for the weight of mice. Looks totally possible to me.

Occulus a dit :

maps simply aren't structured to allow for Divine Mode tactics

People said that the earth is flat but it is round, people said that you cannot break the sound barrier but they did and people said that maps are not structured to allow for Hard Mode tactics but solved them. It's the exact essence of divine mode's challenge. Solving maps which seem to be impossible. This gives you the highest reward possible. If you think that it's too hard for you, don't play it.

I really wish we could like posts because I would like every point Epifistu is posting.

People who are bitching about divine mode ruining gameplay and it should be made easy clearly weren't around for HM's release haha.

Balloons have to be removed:



It's a perfect map to play divine mode on, but balloons just save you a lot of thinking and effort...
Btw this shaman has the title "Smart", it's funny.

I don't know how I'd feel about removal of balloons as they can be helpful in building (for me personally). Perhaps removal of SOLID balloons? I believe Johnlantern did suggest that before.

Personally I would go for a full removal of balloons since I never liked them and always found them making buildings wobbly or unpredictable. Removal of solid balloons still lets you attach them to mice however it's already much better than just leaving them as they are.

Epifistu a dit :

Personally I would go for a full removal of balloons since I never liked them and always found them making buildings wobbly or unpredictable. Removal of solid balloons still lets you attach them to mice however it's already much better than just leaving them as they are.

some maps do need balloons though....
map 81 would be totally impossible to do without balloons.

Epifistu, if you read what I said, then you'll see that I wasn't talking about platforms that you can wrap your build around, but those that are one single column or horizon level platform piece that don't give you the ability to stabilize with. A map like the one you showed is easy on Divine Mode, but I still don't know how to create a stable enough build to create a bridge up to cheese from a horizon-level unwrappable platform to the upper right without it slipping off the platform like a table cloth with a weight tied to one edge of it. In fact, if you want to talk about ease, Divine Mode is actually EASIER in some circumstances, like with ones I will show now:




The two main ones I found most shocking were the dual shaman maps, because I've been finding that they are so super easy to solo with Divine Mode that it's not even funny. The Vinbear dual shaman map especially, where I finished the build with 1 minute 2 seconds, was very surprising, as I would've finished the build with maybe 10 seconds left in Easy Mode and 20-40 seconds left in Hard. Having a large spawn radius is the best thing about Divine Mode and makes it so simple to just set planks down wherever necessary, as long as there is the right support, but the second there is a map with platforms like the one I've described where there's a small platform that is unable to be wrapped around, there just become so many issues getting it to stabilize properly that it's perhaps even impossible. I also generally do not like to use anvils, because they eventually end up bouncing up and down causing all manner of problems and chaos to the build. If you have a solution to the map style I've described, then I will seriously just start using only Divine Mode, because that's the only thing I haven't been able to do yet and the only reason I find the mode challenging. Otherwise, Divine Mode is the easiest mode of all and very fun.

Anyway, these days I've been spending most of my time in private rooms, morting until I find a good hard map to shaman and then practicing different techniques, so I'll keep working at it and start taking more screenshots of my builds. If I find any maps that I've seen that have been impossible so far, I will post them here.

Oh, forgot to add, I don't think balloons should be tampered with, the point of shamaning is to get the majority of mice in the hole (if there are 24 mice, you want to get around 18 - 21 in) and using balloons/bubbles does NOT achieve that, you might get five or six pro mice in, maybe the chance lucky noob, but I would not say that using balloons/bubbles and getting six mice in a room of 24 is really that unfair or cheating. Rather, as the mice scramble for the balloons, they are more likely to die as a result, so it's not a tactic without consequence in the least.

Epifistu a dit :

Occulus, both of your points fall under the case "If it's too hard for you, don't play it."

If there is not enough time left it's probably because you picked divine/hard mode and you needed more time than usual to finish your build. Choose normal mode and this won't happen. If the mice are not smart enough to start playing at the beginning of the round it's their own fault if they don't get into the hole.

Or it could be because he is learning how to divine mode sham and you are just being an asshole

Epifistu a dit :

Anyway, addressing your point of large gaps and the weight of mice, I'd like to present this picture:

I think the gap is large enough (most of the time there is a ground below the cheese so it's even easier to build halfway and build from the cheese side again with your huge summoning range) and the anvil is a placeholder for the weight of mice. Looks totally possible to me.

The massive gaping hole in your argument here is that you said "there was a ground below the cheese so its even easier." If you are trying to address the fact that building over a gap is supposed to be easy, you should probably use a map that DOESN'T have a ground under it for a good amount of time. A good example is map 25.

Epifistu a dit :

People said that you cannot break the sound barrier but they did and people said that maps are not structured to allow for Hard Mode tactics but solved them. It's the exact essence of divine mode's challenge. Solving maps which seem to be impossible. This gives you the highest reward possible. If you think that it's too hard for you, don't play it.

Please just stop throwing around "if its too hard for you don't play it." People aren't going to learn how to play the fucking mode if you are just being a pompous asshole saying stuff like that. If that were an acceptable thing to say, anyone who has ever taught you anything would say that to you if you attempted something. And even if you learned stuff on your own, you still made mistake in learning how to do it, did you not? Instead of just saying pretentious shit along with every other person who looks down on others who use divine mode (you know who you are), maybe you should help them.

Well, I've got to say that seeing a thing that started as few guys doing silly stuff and generally goofing around end up shaping the game for everyone makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Occulus a dit :

Epifistu, if you read what I said, then you'll see that I wasn't talking about platforms that you can wrap your build around, but those that are one single column or horizon level platform piece that don't give you the ability to stabilize with.

I agree, horizontal grounds are difficult, but I wouldn't dare to call them impossible. However single pillars are not a problem.

Crashwolf a dit :

The massive gaping hole in your argument here is that you said "there was a ground below the cheese so its even easier." If you are trying to address the fact that building over a gap is supposed to be easy, you should probably use a map that DOESN'T have a ground under it for a good amount of time. A good example is map 25.

I don't know if you actually read my post but I said that "most of the time there is a ground below the cheese" which clearly was not the case in the example I showed. Please take a look at that post, the picture is still there and the construction is a bridge into empty space without ANY ground under it at all, not just for "a good amount of time"...
Also take a look at the picture I posted now in regards to your "good example" of map 25. Map 25 is exactly one of the maps I was talking about because you could build halfway, and THEN build again halfway but from the other side. I presented you a solution which goes from one way thus proving your point invalid in my opinion.

Crashwolf a dit :

Please just stop throwing around "if its too hard for you don't play it." People aren't going to learn how to play the fucking mode if you are just being a pompous asshole saying stuff like that.

Let me rephrase it to the following: If it's too hard for you, don't complain about making it easier. If it was made easier it would be changing the framework around it which I would consider cheating, teachers in school also don't lower the standards just because somebody writes bad grades.

Crashwolf a dit :

And even if you learned stuff on your own, you still made mistake in learning how to do it, did you not?

Of course I made mistakes, everybody does. A learning process however is only possible if you stop repeating your mistakes and improve yourself based on those mistakes instead of you complaining about the framework being too hard, claiming that conditions need to be lowered. That way you'll never improve yourself in life.

I saw someone mention map 25, and that's a map Tom and I used to challenge eachother on for fun a lot. With anvils, this map is a piece of cake, as well as most maps like it. However most other maps provide even more grounds to secure your build around.



Also, like Epifistu said, building half way is a great often overlooked strategy which can be applied to many other situations. People have a tendency to build in a straight line. If they consider building from more than one source, they may find life a lot easier in this mode.

Oh, and I saw mention of removing balloons. My opinion on that:
Removing solid balloons, definitely. It's just plain annoying having to ghost them, to me (I've still never gotten over the switch from ghost default to solid default). However, balloons can be used quite ingeniously in builds, most notably to secure them around a ground with the strings. This makes things a tad bit easy sometimes, but I feel that it requires enough skill that it's still "divine", unlike say arrow anchors.