Prr a dit :

Hinakagiyama a dit :VoirMasquer

I still fail to see the difference between a statpadder and a better statpadder who knows how the CFM ranking works. They still care about stats, their profile and above all their CFM ranking.

I think your opinion on the matter is highly biased and close-minded. There's a clear difference between wanting to show off with stats that just look good and caring about your ratios. You don't have to care about your profile or cfm ranking to care about ratios, since having those statistics give one a good indication of how well one is playing, as long as the stats can be trusted. Bootcamp cheese obviously makes all the stats moot.

Statistics are fun in skill-based games. You obviously don't think so, but there are a lot of people who do. I'd probably be heavily against this change too if my profile was anywhere close to truthful, but it's not so I don't care personally. I do know that I won't be bootcamping with any of the alts that still have correct stats though.

I'm sorry. I was asuming people cared about their ratios because of how they influenced their CFM ranking or how their profiles looked. If the people complaining here are doing so because it mess with how good of an indicator their stats are, then I think that's a pretty good reason to complain. But keep in mind that TFM has never been so serious about statistics (it has been 4 years and only now they came up with the idea of separate stats for each minigame, still no leaderboard, rounds aren't visible in-game, etc.). And even though it is a skill based game, it hasn't been serious about that either (we all know Tig is all about randomness, troll maps and having fun).

I don't think I can have a biased point of view or opinion here considering I did care about my ratios, profile and ranking way back then, when bootcamp didn't even have stats.

I'm still comparing that kind of people to what you call statpadders since both aim for the best possible stats, whether they want to show off or not.

Prr a dit :

a dit :VoirMasquer

My whole point here was that this update didn't ruin bootcamp, it didn't mess with the minigame and it doesn't really affect bootcampers.

Bootcampers? Since when bootcampers became a different race from other players? Can people not enjoy both?

What's different in bootcamp is that you don't need any profiles or stats to show that you are good or to show to yourself how good you are. People don't need any indicators, other than their time completing the maps. So real bootcamp players don't need to care about their profiles (bootcamp points at least) nor they need to farm (although some do).

Prr a dit :

a dit :VoirMasquer

you can ask any serious bootcamp player/speedrunner, the ones that only play bootcamp for the most part, if this update ruined their game. It didn't

The vast majority of people who mainly bootcamp are either indifferent or against the change. It's not like they do anything with the cheese anyway. The update brought nothing to people who bootcamp a lot, it only encouraged casual farming for those who want really fast cheese and gave a very slight incentive for people who do not bootcamp to try it.

I think you are right. Most serious bootcamp players are indifferent. I'm one of the few people who are 'happy' with this update since I also play a little vanilla just for fun (for the most part) and care about the shop. Some players are so serious about bootcamp that they don't even care about having shop cheese or titles or anything. But I still think that they should be more happy about it. At least they can spend their cheese and skill points to have a little break from the pressure of having to get the best time in each bootcamp map, when playing some vanilla/normal rooms once in a while.

Prr a dit :

In a nutshell, people who don't bootcamp a lot and can't complete maps consistently are getting so little cheese that it makes no difference and people who bootcamp a lot and can complete maps consistently don't care or they farm to get shop items / raise cfm rankings quickly. There's a very minor portion of players in the middle who complete maps just enough to make the cheese feel somewhat rewarding. I really don't see how the positives offset the negatives in this case.

I have to disagree here. There is a nice thing that comes with this update and there is a group of people that should get the most out of it. The new players. I remember the first time I played bootcamp and found it so hard that I asked 'what do you get if you win a map?'. We've all seen newbies asking the same question. And even though I think bootcamp isn't about farming or getting rewards other than getting better at the game, I think all the effort new players have to go through when learning bootcamp for the first time will be really worth it once they reach the point where they can complete every map lots of time, they'll get more cheese and more consistently.

They would have to put a limit for collecting shop cheese though, something like 1 cheese every 30 seconds max. Or they will farm extremely fast as Noexcuses pointed out.

Lilyblol a dit :

Bootcamp is ruined...for people who care about their stats?

That was the point I was trying to explain/prove. Nothing else. I don't understand why you kept saying how close minded I am and how I don't understand that there are other people who care about their stats. Of course I know other people care about their stats (heck, some care about them more than anything else, even sleeping). But those are the people for whom bootcamp is ruined.

Bootcamp is not ruined for me and most people who I know that are extremely good at the game, and I assume they are serious bootcamp players, otherwise they wouldn't be that good. They play every single map, they get good times in all of them, they speedrun, they got records, they got everything but stats (some do farm, as I said, although most farmers aren't good bootcampers).

You've got good reasons to complain I guess. But please don't try to complain in the name of bootcamp. The update messed with normal/vanilla stats, it didn't mess with bootcamp. Serious bootcamp players don't care. You should also put yourself in the shoes of people who only care about bootcamp and play competitively in bootcamp.

---

I think it's time we blame Tig because if the game had had a proper stats system with separate stats for every minigame and all statistics shown in-game, plus a leaderboard, this whole discussion wouldn't be taking place.

I mean there's serious bootcampers who also care about stats of normal/vanilla, which is where I put it in the name of bootcamp. i understand if you don't care or like this change, you've made valid points. I'm just trying to explain that there's other ways to get cheese than bootcamping and it's angered the serious bootcampers like me who are serious about stats too. I understand that people simply just don't care about this update, but there's a portion of people that do.

Tig is always making the game more suitable for the newer players, yes, but he's also making it the reason why older players think this game is shit. He keeps changing the game that was fine 2 years ago. He could've improved the millions of other shit wrong with this game instead of angering this portion of people with an unneeded update.

Auroraclears a dit :

Lilyblol a dit :VoirMasquer

That's basically the point, and calling me stupid will get you nowhere. Sorry that I take this game more seriously than you do. And it's not the same as statpadding, these are two completely different things. Come back to this thread when you find out what statpadding means before accusing me of being one.

Wasn't even referring to you but whatevs
What you're describing is still basically the same thing as statpadding since you care more about how your profile looks as opposed to actual stats that get measured.

Who were you referring to then..?
And I've explained what statpadding is a few times in this thread already, I care about how my profile looks on cfm and in-game. Does a 53% cheese ratio look like statpadding to you? Cuz that's not what it is. And statpadding is irrelevant to bootcamp anyway. I don't see how that was brought up in the first place. Most statpadders you see don't even bootcamp anyway.

To the people still complaining about the effect on round ratios I think it's worth pointing out that bootcamp rounds last 6 minutes, and a rate of 10 rounds per hour is pretty tiny compared to round gain in normal rooms. I don't recall seeing anyone whine about racing in spite of that having a much more significant effect on your save ratio, so this is barely anything to complain about even if you are one of those people who still cares about cfm rankings.

Lilyblol a dit :

Who were you referring to then..?

People who'd hypothetically look at your profile without taking your bootcamp stats into account in terms of your first/cheese ratio?
There's no reason to complain about this update's effect on your in game profile even if first/cheese ratios are something you obsess over.

Auroraclears a dit :

To the people still complaining about the effect on round ratios I think it's worth pointing out that bootcamp rounds last 6 minutes, and a rate of 10 rounds per hour is pretty tiny compared to round gain in normal rooms. I don't recall seeing anyone whine about racing in spite of that having a much more significant effect on your save ratio, so this is barely anything to complain about even if you are one of those people who still cares about cfm rankings.

"Only 10 rounds per hour". I don't even know how can someone say that. After 100 hours it is 1000 rounds and that will affect greatly anyones ratios. Or would you be willing to cut of your salary by 10 dollars per hour? It is pretty tiny compared what you earn in a year. No? Didn't think so. And I'm sure racing would have same discussion if they had separate stats first and then started adding rounds like this. It wasn't easy to get ratios I have now due to all the hole blocking, favoring, lagging maps with consumables etc. And I don' want it all go down because one bad, unnecessary update.

So apparently they removed the ability to gather shop cheese now. Feel free to forget anything remotely positive I've said about this update.

Auroraclears a dit :

So apparently they removed the ability to gather shop cheese now. Feel free to forget anything remotely positive I've said about this update.

LOL if that is true.

edit: Shop cheese still works, verified. Despite the shop cheese wasn't removed, I'll leave the following paragraph unedited, since it is always relevant.

This just really highlights the problem with many of the updates in the past few years. They make up these changes out of the blue without listening to the community at all, notice their update is broken, still fail to listen to the community and end up making things worse by trying to fix the original update with a worse one.

I just checked and I'm still able to get shop cheese in bootcamp.

I'd be totally fine if it was just shop cheese added when you bootcamp, since there's endless possibilities to getting gathered cheese in the game anyway. Like in lua modules, you get 1 cheese every 2 minutes. They could've made it like that. :/

hm
I guess/hope it was a glitch, or me and the other person who this happened to just kept track of our shop cheese wrong then.

They put a one minute time limit on shop/profile cheese and shaman experience sometime before the 20th. I don't know when, but it was active when I posted on page 2. The bootcamp stat is unchanged.

Well they should, I still don't like it -_-

I'm actually posting on the forums for the first time to give my opinion on this, and hoping people understand Lily's position (which is the same as mine).

I think Tig's idea was good when it comes to rewarding cheese for completing bootcamps, but it was done in the worst possible way.

As Prr mentioned before and explained quite well with some analogies, the current bootcamp rewards completely break cfm statistics.
For example, if you create an account and jump straight into bootcamp, you can get over 100% cheese ratio. That doesn't make much sense, does it?

I understand that there's people who don't care about their statistics whatsoever, this is quite good for them since they're actually getting rewarded for playing the game mode they enjoy. On the other hand, there's also people who care about their statistics who are getting penalized for it.

Prr a dit :

Statistics are only useful when they're true. If you're going to affect them randomly so that you can no longer distinguish where the stats have come from, there's no point in having any statistics at all.

What kinda makes me sad is people who are so close minded and refuse to get in others shoes. You don't care about your stats? Fine. There's people who do. But that doesn't give you the right to jump into insults.
There will always be competition in every game, specially when there's statistics involved. If you refuse to accept that then you do have a problem.

Concluding, in my personal opinion it should reward shop cheese only. No rounds, no profile cheese, no exp. Just like modules.
That would make everyone happy, wouldn't it?

Now back to #records0shinzuiibootcamp room...

I used to be concerned since a couple of months ago about my stats, but the time i've spent sometimes afk in normal rooms because of stuff i' was doing riuned my stats forever.
My profile has a 9% first ratio and a 50% cheese, My alt, used for a year caring a little more about stats has way better stats, about 65 cheese ratiom 80% saves and 15% ratio. So i can see how this affect the """statwhores""" (no offense intended).
The point, to me is that how a player is good is not shown from the stats since the discovery of round glitching.
Your skill level is shown from how you actually play.
I don't care if a random padder calls me noob because i've 12000 first over 70000 cheese gathered (which is not that bad tbh), Because if i play "for real" i can show anyone that i'm actually a really good player, able to play fair and square with some top 100, maybe losing, but not being demolished like most padders do.
According to what i'm saying, i and many players that enjoys the game in all of it's aspect don't give a damn about this update, it's good to have cheese, it's bad because we can't hang that much in bootcamp rooms. No biggie, we'll move to an #utility.

shinzuii a dit :

For example, if you create an account and jump straight into bootcamp, you can get over 100% cheese ratio. That doesn't make much sense, does it?

You bring cheese to the goal in Bootcamp, it does make sense to get cheese. What doesn't make any sense is getting cheese in Survivor.

What doesn't make sense here is sharing the same stats across all of the official minigames.

shinzuii a dit :

What kinda makes me sad is people who are so close minded and refuse to get in others shoes. You don't care about your stats? Fine. There's people who do. But that doesn't give you the right to jump into insults.

I'd like to point out that it's the people against the update who are jumping into insults the most. The ones who care about their stats. I'm not trying to stereotype these people but for the most part it's always the stat obsessed people who are into this kind of behavior.

....You cant get rid of this,this is best update that tfm brought,now i can have fun doing bootcamp and saving cheese

Glad this went back to normal

jaxri a dit :

Glad this went back to normal

Not exactly back to normal, rounds still count.

^ yeah. which isn't exactly that bad, you can avoid the rounds by joining a room after a map has started, play on it and leave before 0:00

Still can't play on main accounts with ratios unless you want to be constantly round glitching. Honestly there's no point in keeping rounds in bootcamp after taking cheese out. I kind of think it was overlooked by admins, but there hasn't been much noise about it. I'll keep playing on guests.