Weapons Balancing [OFFICIAL FANMADE]

Official Fanmade Weapons Balancing Thread - Final Report
Final submission only to be made via my approval.

INTRODUCTION
Halfway during V1.36 (Exact date unknown), I reported an exploit with the M40 A5 where its perfect accuracy could be abused to shoot through walls and harm other players. I sent a detailed report through a moderator and it got Tigrounette's attention. The M40 A5's accuracy was nerfed from 0 degrees to 0.7 degrees. This means that potentially Tigrounette will change weapon parameters if we sent him a detailed report on each weapon.

Although bugs and glitches and exploits take priority over mechanic tweaks, I consider weapons being unbalanced as a flaw in the game and an exploit/unfair advantage for those who choose to use those weapons against those who choose to wield weaker weapons.

Although it's less likely to receive approval, we should try this anyway. Dealing with hackers is a much bigger deal than changing a set of parameters. If we did the rebalancing for Atelier 801, it would be much more likely to receive an update. Furthermore, it would create a fresh new feel on every gun and so people would stop complaining as much about having new weapons.

Existing data about each weapon can be found Here and Here.

Please use the navigation above to explore each criteria. The criteria and their descriptions are as follows:

Tier list of each gun. This will be used to determine how much of a nerf the top ranking guns should receive and how much of a boost the lower ranking guns should receive.
Noticeable flaws/weaknesses with each gun. This is where opinions about why a gun is used/isn't used is posted. It is critical when deciding which parts of each weapon to rebalance.
Importance of each parameter on each weapon by rank and relationship with each other. This will be used to value each weapon to determine if it is too overpowered or too weak or balanced.
Some trend charts that are used to illustrate how each parameter behaves, and how unique weapons do not follow this trend. A weapon's worth is more than a set of numbers.
An overview of recommended changes. This is a visual chart showing in green and red where we have made changes. This is also where you can see how each weapon compares in different areas.
Recommended changes in detail. This will list every gun in appearance on the armory and what changes should be made.

This is a tier list according to more advanced players. It can be changed around. This will be helpful in the later sections. A justification might include all the disadvantageous matchups each weapon actually has. The tier list has also been organised in terms of advantages vs. disadvantages.

From strongest (least disadvantageous matchups) to weakest (most disadvantageous matchups) the tier list of primary weapons is as follows:

1) MP5
2) SPAS 12
3) M4 A1
4) P90
5) M40 A5
6) Steyr Aug
7) Famas
8) AK 47
9) M60
10) G36C
11) UMP 45
12) AN 94

From strongest (least disadvantageous matchups) to weakest (most disadvantageous matchups) the tier list of secondary weapons is as follows:

1) Uzi
2) Beretta 9mm
3) Glock 18
4) Desert Eagle
5) MP412 REX
6) .357 Magnum

This is where you post what complaints you have about using each gun. You can also post why you think a gun should be used.
Areas of weakness are listed in red. Areas of strength are listed in green. Note that if a weapon has the same number of advantages and/or disadvantages as another weapon, they are tiered differently because of the importance of the parameters in question.

In the event a disadvantage corresponds to a static parameter, a malleable parameter will be buffed as compensation.

M4 A1
- Precise and speedy.

MP5
- Extremely high damage output.
- Automatic and fast.

SPAS-12
- Extremely high damage output.
- The only semi-automatic primary weapon.

AK-47
- Good number on clips
- Damage output over time is too low.

FAMAS
- Precise and speedy
- Damage per clip is too low.
- Clip size is too small.

M40 A5
- High damage output per clip.
- Highest instantaneous damage in the game. Crouch damage is just over 10 (max damage healed).
- Too slow.

G36C
- Damage output over time is too low.
- Unsuitable for long distance fighting.

AN-94
- Damage per clip is too low.
- Damage output over time is too low.
- Clips are expended way too fast (Not enough bullets per clip)

M60
- Greatest damage per clip in the game.
- Unsuitable for long range fighting.
- Indifferent in damage output over time at close range to the m4 a1

UMP-45
- Best distance based damage output in the game.
- Damage per clip is too low.
- Clip size is way too low.

STEYR AUG
- Good damage output per clip.
- Too slow.

P90
- Good damage output per clip.
- Fast

BERETTA
- Excellent reload times. Fairly constant damage output over time

MAGNUM
- Highest instant damage output of secondaries
- Too slow.
- Reload time is very long.
- Misses are very costly.

DEAGLE
- High accuracy for its instantaneous damage.
- Slower.

UZI
- The only automatic secondary firearm. High speed.
- Damage output is acceptable for a secondary (not too low, even if it is the lowest of the secondaries)

GLOCK
- Same benefits as the beretta.

MP412 REX
- Excellent damage per clip value. Misses are not very costly.
- Too slow.
- Reload time is very long.

This is where information about how each parameter contributes to the final value of each gun is placed. You might want to consider similar weapons e.g. the Famas and M4 A1 (famas is underbalanced) and consider how a change in speed changes the damage (since only those two were changed), or you might like to look at the p90 and m4 a1 (two good balanced weapons) and consider the changes in accuracy and speed and how it affects the damage.

Each parameter will also be ranked in terms of influence on Instantaneous Damage.

Instantanous Damage (FOCUS) [MALLEABLE]
- Buffing means effectiveness against individuals and mobs increases at approximately the same rate (large increase)
- Nerfing means effectiveness against individuals and mobs decreases at approximately the same rate (large decrease)

Speed/Cooldown (Rank 3) [MOSTLY STATIC]
- Buffing means effectiveness against individuals increases more greatly than against mobs
- Nerfing means effectiveness against individuals decreases more greatly than against mobs
- Cooldown 100 -> 80; Instant damage 2 -> 1.7 [Slightly unbalanced estimate] [M4 A1 -> FAMAS]
- Cooldown 100 -> 80 and precision 10 -> 20 ; Instant damage 2 -> 1.6 [Well balanced] [M4 A1 -> P90]
- Cooldown 175 -> 80 and precision 15 -> 20 ; Instant damage 3 -> 1.6 [Unbalanced estimate] [AK 47 -> P90]

Magazine/Bullets per clip (Rank 2) [MALLEABLE]
- Buffing means effectiveness against mobs increases more greatly than against individuals
- Nerfing means effectiveness against mobs decreases more greatly than against individuals
- Magazine 50 -> 30 and precision 20 -> 10 ; Instant damage 1.6 -> 1.8 [Slightly unbalanced estimate] [P90 -> FAMAS]
- Magazine 30 -> 90 and precision 10 -> 30 ; Instant damage 2 -> 2 [Unbalanced estimate] [M4 A1 -> M60]
- Magazine 25 -> 18 and cooldown 90 -> 70 ; Instant damage 2.2 -> 2 [Unbalanced estimate] [G36C -> UMP 45]

Reload (Rank 5) [STATIC]
- Negligible influence.

Precision (Rank 4) [STATIC]
- Long range ability is heavily dependent on damage output over time weighted over the weapon's chance of hitting an opponent at long range. A precision value of 18 is an approximation to the maximum value of the precision before it starts missing at long range.

1) Suitable for balancing accurate weapons.

2) Suitable for balancing all weapons except spas 12.

3) Suitable for balancing accurate weapons.

4) Unsuitable for balancing anything.

Source: Weapons Info - Tigrounette's Post

AN ABRIDGED EXPLANATION OF TERMINOLOGY
DPC - Damage Per Clip. The larger this value is, generally the more useful a weapon is when dealing with mobs of enemies.
DPS - Damage Per Second. The larger this value is, generally the faster the weapon will be able to kill a player.
LDPS - Long-term Damage Per Second - This value is an indication of the rate of damage of a weapon over a long period of time.
DWDPS - Distance-Weighted Damage Per Second - This is a value of the effective damaging ability of the weapon at maximum range.
DWLDPS - Distance-Weighted Long-term Damage Per Second - LDPS but with distance factored in.
TTK - Time to kill - This is the measure of how long it would take for the weapon to kill. This is strongly influenced by how clean a weapon's damages are (i.e. if they are factors of 40 or not)
LRDPC - Long Range Damage Per Clip - This is essentially how much of the damage supplied by the clip makes it to an enemy at full range.
CCA - Conjuration-Cutting Ability - This compares how good each weapon is at cutting through an enemy's conjuration defences depending on how much resistance to destruction there is.

CCA = [(1+R)^(Cmax/C)-(1+R)^(Cmax/Cmin) + 1] * 100% ; 0 < R

R is the resistance (composed of bad internet reception and the rate at which the target is repairing their builds). R for the above summary has been set to 0.0312666 (Low resistance)

R = 0 means there is no resistance to weapon fire and all weapons stand as equals (i.e. no conj exists)
CCA < 0 means it is impossible for a weapon to cut through the resistance. It basically means that the enemy is restoring their defences faster than you are destroying it.

CCA of 100% does not mean a weapon will completely cut through conj without obstructions - it is simply a relative measure.

LCCA - Long-term Conjuration-Cutting Ability - This is the CCA of the weapon with its effective cooldown over a long period of time factored in. The maximum value is no longer 100%. LCCA is NOT to be used to determine how long a weapon spends in reload - rather, how much the reload time impacts its ability to destroy an enemy's defences.

Recovery - This is the rate at which the enemy is restoring their defences.

COMMENTARY ON CHANGES
Some changes above may seem illogical at first glance. I will explain them in more detail here.

- Is the an-94 outright stronger than an m4 a1? - The answer is no. They deal damage at the same rate, but the AN 94 has a smaller clip size (but bigger damage per clip). Therefore, misses with it are incrementally more costly, and it deserves a little more power than the m4 a1.
- Is the famas outright stronger than an m4 a1? - The answer is no. It is the same logic as the an 94, except it has a smaller damage per clip, but a bigger clip meaning misses are incrementally less costly. The damage over time value is not much different. It is much easier to track a moving target with an m4 a1 than a famas.
- Is the steyr aug outright stronger than an m4 a1? - The answer is yes, depending on what area you look at. The steyr aug fails miserably at 1v1 battles, but excels (by a significant amount) in mob battles. This is how it has always been. A buff just increased its individual ability a little.
- Is the Mp5 outright better than the ump-45? - The answer is yes, depending on what area you look at. On first glance, the Mp5 has a larger damage per clip value and similar damages per second, meaning logically you would choose an Mp5. However, on further analysis, it is revealed that the ump-45 excels in long-range combat. So they are cousins at close range, but they differ in long range. Ump-45's ability in long range is counteracted by its lower clip size.
- Is the m60 outright better than a P90 or AK 47? - The answer is yes at closer ranges. The M60 was intended to be a close range pressure weapon and an excellent mob battler. It's almost completely useless at longer ranges. The P90 and Ak 47 are for users who prefer lots of damages per clip over a long period of time but want to hit faraway opponents.
- Is the p90 outright better than a famas or m4 a1? - Click here.

A list of queries has been provided in the posts following this report.

Changes will be marked in color and using arrows. The values written in white are unchanged.

M4 A1
Instant Damages: 2
Cooldown: 100
Bullets per Clip: 30
Reload Time: 3
Precision: 10
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

MP5
Instant Damages: 2.6 -> 2.3
Cooldown: 80
Bullets per Clip: 22 -> 25
Reload Time: 2
Precision: 30
Justification: Balanced by trend chart 2). All problems with it were associated with its damage output, which should be similar to the ump 45. (Ump 45 is a slightly more accurate weapon with a bad clip) It's halfway between the value before its big buff and after its big buff, so it still retains some of its former increase in strength. The clip increase was a result of the Mp5 needing compensation for its lower damage per clip. (it would have been 50 damages per clip, which is considered bad for a fast automatic [e.g. the old G36C or the old An 94]) To summarise, its effectiveness against individuals has been nerfed, while its effectiveness against mobs has been left alone.

SPAS-12
Instant Damages: 15.2 [4*3.8] -> 13.2 [4*3.3]
Cooldown: 400
Bullets per Clip: 6 -> 7
Reload Time: 3
Precision: 100
Justification: I thought of nerfing the spas 12 so that it would take 4 complete shots to kill a player at 40 HP . The nerf from 4 to 3.8 was basically useless because it didn't change the fact it required 3 separate shots to completely kill a player. Its kill time at the moment is 33% faster than an Mp5. Seeing as the Mp5 is also getting a nerf, the spas should take its place. It should still have the highest damage output per second in the game. It should reward users for connecting fully with the pellets. Increasing the clips to 7 would return the damages per clip that we took away during this nerf. Three shots scraping just short of 40 damage should provide an incentive for spas-12 players to use secondary weapons. The 7th set of bullets in the clip is a reward for conservative spas-12 users who incorporate secondary weapons in their gameplay. For example, it requires 4 bullets to kill a player, thus there are only 3 left. Once 3 are used, the secondary weapon is necessary to finish off the player.

AK-47
Instant Damages: 3 -> 3.4
Cooldown: 175
Bullets per Clip: 31
Reload Time: 3
Precision: 15
Justification: Balanced according to trend chart 2). Furthermore, its DPS should just fall short of 20 as although it is a lower accuracy weapon and fires more slowly (still suitable for longer ranges), it has an excellent damage per clip value (Similar to the M60, which has a 20 DPS but terrible accuracy) It was just far too weak before this change.

FAMAS
Instant Damages: 1.7
Cooldown: 80
Bullets per Clip: 30 -> 32
Reload Time: 2.5
Precision: 10
Justification: The famas lacked firepower and missing was far too costly. We decided to bring up the clip so that it would not be outright better than the m4 a1; its semi-equivalent, and that there was more room for missing with the weapon. Its effectiveness in mob fights is better. Its individual ability is unchanged.

M40 A5
Instant Damages: 17
Cooldown: 1600
Bullets per Clip: 7 -> 8
Reload Time: 3.2
Precision: 1
Justification: Doesn't need rebalancing. (I disagree now -> damage should be nerfed to 15 and bullets per clip increased by 1, but I can't change this because I don't have the excel file anymore)

G36C
Instant Damages: 2.2
Cooldown: 90
Bullets per Clip: 25 -> 30
Reload Time: 2.5
Precision: 20
Justification: I decided against a damage buff. Its long range ability is already excellent, and its damage over time count is already quite high. Most users had the problem with its clips and accuracy. I decided to leave the accuracy unchanged so I focused on increasing the clips. I feel this amount is appropriate and clean for this weapon.

AN-94
Instant Damages: 2.5 -> 2.7
Cooldown: 130
Bullets per Clip: 20 -> 23
Reload Time: 2.5
Precision: 5
Justification: I felt this weapon needed the most love after being undervalued for so long. Its damage output was terrible, its damage per clip output was amongst the lowest of the primary weapons and it had a terrible clip. For being such an accurate weapon, I felt it needed a kick. I gave it a damage and clip buff, as it needed both. I was careful not to increase either too much for fear of it overshadowing the M4 A1 and Famas. The an 94 now stands as their equal.

M60
Instant Damages: 2 -> 2.2
Cooldown: 100
Bullets per Clip: 90 -> 80
Reload Time: 5
Precision: 30
Justification: Initially I felt it was not a good idea to increase its damage output because it already had a huge damage per clip value. But I noticed that simultaneously increasing the damage and decreasing the clip would keep the damage output per clip fairly constant. The M60 suffered from a long distance handicap and was no different individually at close range to an m4 a1. We decided to buff the M60's damage output to give it a bit more power in individual encounters; rewarding users for sacrificing their long range ability. Its ability in a mob fight is not affected (since damage per clip is fairly constant)

UMP-45
Instant Damages: 2
Cooldown: 70
Bullets per Clip: 18 -> 20
Reload Time: 1
Precision: 20
Justification: Being the greatest at long range battling, I decided not to buff the Ump-45's damage any further. I increased the clip size to just enough where it would kill a player in one clip. This was the main problem ump-45 users had with the weapon. The ump-45 will now reward users for taking a greater risk. It has similar damage output to the mp5. The ump-45's ability in individual battles and mob battles have both been increased to give the weapon a better chance. Note: I disagree and the bullets per clip should be 23 now because it needs to be a bit past the threshold for players to use it, for players to actually give it a chance.

STEYR AUG
Instant Damages: 4 -> 4.4
Cooldown: 220
Bullets per Clip: 20
Reload Time: 3
Precision: 10
Justification: I put the Steyr Aug's damage up just enough so that it would equal an M4 A1 in damages per second. I decided this was a fair trade because the steyr aug is very slow and can be easily blocked. Its ability in a mob fight and in an individual fight is now greater. Being the second slowest primary weapon, it is supposed to cut down enemies who do not protect themselves.

P90
Instant Damages: 1.6
Cooldown: 80
Bullets per Clip: 50
Reload Time: 2
Precision: 20
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

BERETTA
Instant Damages: 2
Cooldown: 150
Bullets per Clip: 17
Reload Time: 1
Precision: 3
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

MAGNUM
Instant Damages: 9
Cooldown: 500
Bullets per Clip: 6
Reload Time: 4
Precision: 10
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

DEAGLE
Instant Damages: 5
Cooldown: 300
Bullets per Clip: 9
Reload Time: 2
Precision: 5
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

UZI
Instant Damages: 1 -> 0.6
Cooldown: 70
Bullets per Clip: 35
Reload Time: 1.5
Precision: 20
Justification: This is probably the riskiest decision out of all the changes. We recognised that the Uzi was overshadowing every other primary weapon because it was automatic, was very good at digging and also its fighting ability was not much different. We decided to nerf its fighting ability so that it was much weaker than other weapons. We decided this was important as some players use secondary weaponry to fight, especially if they have run out of ammunition. It is highly likely that a player will consider another secondary option or will use their primary weapon to dig and secondary to deal damage.

GLOCK
Instant Damages: 3
Cooldown: 200
Bullets per Clip: 11
Reload Time: 1
Precision: 3
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

MP412 REX
Instant Damages: 6
Cooldown: 400
Bullets per Clip: 12
Reload Time: 3
Precision: 10
Justification: Does not need rebalancing.

CONCLUSION

Finally, a lot of weapons that went unloved will be noticed by fortoresse players.

[Solfn] without balancing out the weapons any person would just pick a spas or mp5
[Solfn] because they're too good
[Solfn] and never pick ak or an
[Solfn] now we're getting the mp5 users to consider ump 45 (Same damage output, but ump has greater long range ability and a small clip)
[Solfn] and the spas users to consider secondary weapon gameplay (Rewards and incentives for mixups)
[Solfn] and m4/famas users to consider an 94 and ak 47 and steyr aug (Equals in precision and damage output)
[Solfn] and p90 users to consider g36c and m60 (High speed users who prefer greater damage output in mobs)

Every weapon will be loved. Nothing is left out.

Dernière modification le

They are all actually very important but of course some are better than others.

Instantanous damage 85
I give this such a high rating because i like to vanquish enemies and a high damage weapon would be useful so when i play, i mostly use M40 A5, Spas 12 and MP5.
Speed/Cooldown 75
Even though i love using M40 A5 and Spas, but i think speed is important simply because it has a higher chance to kill an enemy.
Bullets per clip 65
I give it this rating because i love using M40 A5 which has only 7 bullets per clip and a lot of people use it too! I don't mind how much bullet are in a clip, only if the weapon damage is high.
Reload 70
I give this an average rating because it doesn't really matter to me if it reloads slow, you could use conj to protect yourself or just simply run away.
Accuracy 80
I believe this is useful if a weapon has good accuracy since you could shoot enemies further away without missing so it could work great with any distance.

Dernière modification le

So I'm putting in the values and I'm coming up with some ridiculous things that don't work, so I don't think I'm looking at this the right way.

e.g. the clip rates spas 12 really low when it's supposed to be really high, or the an 94 is at the top when it's supposed to be at the bottom, etc.

I'm probably going to have to look at this differently.

E: I've decided to do it so that we consider how each parameter affects the final instantaneous damage.

E2: I've started proposing some changes on the final changes page. Let me know whether you agree or disagree with the changes.

To summarise, the current dilemmas are:
- The spas 12 dilemma - 3.3 or 3.4 damage? One means spas users are forced to fire 4 shots to kill their opponents and one rewards them for connecting with all shots.

Dernière modification le

About the parameters,it's hard to consider each of them independently.My result is

sum of the total is 100
Instantaneous damage 15
Speed/Cooldown 30
Bullets per clip 25
Reload 10
Accuracy 20

Reasons

why fire rate is the most important?
1.You can break through obstacle easily,especially conj.Enemy usually conj around to protect themselves.Or enemy running behind some obstacle you need to deal with.

2.May be a wall between me and an enemy.When we shoot each other,I take advantage.Or even I can actively begin to shoot before enemy begins.

3.the process of a fighting is
find enemy>shoot enemy>reload and escape with conj>find enemy...
before you reload and escape,enemy sees you and shoot you too,so you should escape as fast as you can.
How long you shoot is direct ratio with how long you being shot.High fire rate can decrease the time you shoot,as well as you can escape in shorter time.

Hence fire rate helps you both in attack and defense.

The second important one is Bullets per clip
The time you shoot and being shot is direct ratio.If you have low amount of bullet,you can escape quick,not just a drawback.
Depends on the fire rate,increasing in bullets is also safe to do.

As mentioned above,when bullets is enough,it can support high fire rate,and succeed any benefits that fire rate has,including the ability to break walls.Of course,low amount of bullets can also do the same,just not good enough.

And the unique strength of high bullets is able to maintain a long term fight.On the premise you are able to survive a long time.Or YOLO(you only live once,dominant,you are VIP...).However primary weapon is out of ammo,you still have secondary weapon to fight.

Why Accuracy is the third one?
The benefits of high accuracy is,you can shoot from long distance with high chance to hit.Staying at a long distance from enemy,means you can step back immediately to be safe.Enemy can't see you or the bullet may reaches its limit(outer range).This actually helps you to defense.

However if you meet some Spaers(ppl holding Saps) you are done,not to mention how terrible Spas is.They come in front of you,in such distance accuracy is useless.All 4 bullets of Spas can hit you too.So in short range fight,it's useless.
Then how often you have a short range fight?Except for Spaers,exploring enemy usually have some obstacle between you and enemy.So you two might walk to a proper place then shoot,the place is properly more closer to enemy.

How about low accuracy,the drawback is obvious high miss chance.But this has strength too in some situation.
Shooting from long distance to target,bullets spread around your target.If your target locate at a crowd of enemies,then isn't all your bullets hits enemy?Yes,it's useful in team fight when you can stay at a high place to shoot those enemies.(MP5)
But such situation doesn't always happen.

I gave Instantaneous damage 15 points,less important.
I'm now a hacker and all my bullets can deal 999 damage!
so what?
If the bullet cannot hits enemy then it's useless.It's the drawback of sniper,conj around yourself must protect you from long range sniper.
So what affects if a bullet can hit an enemy?Fire rate,and the one supporting fire rate,ammo,also Accuracy.
On these premise,we then think about how much damage can I deal to.

And the last one is Reload.
As we can usually escape quick with conj.Quick reload or constant output of fire isn't important.It only affects your output of fire in long term.

I use sniper,Saps and famas.Sometimes I use P90.
Before explain in detail,a simple theory is[high precision=long range=defensive]

I will talk about the worst guns in tier list later....

Only you can make me not eye-roll with a thread named "OFFICIAL FANMADE" (considering your stuff often seems more official than actual official stuff =p).

Anywho, not to complain, but all your nerfs / bumps currently seem to be for the damage stat; which I'm fine with (easiest to visualize), but it seems some should maybe have different tweaks?

Also, I know the "Precision" / Reload time for the M60 is supposed to balance it, but I feel it having the same cooldown and damage as the M4 A1 still makes it a little to powerful, considering it's the only weapon you can't logically really just "wait out". The high reload time might make it balanced it if you could wait it out (like 40-50 ammo), but as it is you can usually just hide while you reload it. I mean, it has the same Precession as the MP5 which really isn't that bad... I'd vote for a small nerf to the precision (an extra 5 maybe?). I'd also like a small nerf to the cooldown, but that might just be greedy...

I feel the Beretta 9mm could use an slightly extended clip (+3?), since it's DPS isn't the best, it's the default weapon, and it's main "strength" (speed) is overshadowed so powerfully by the Uzi.

The Glock seems fairly well balanced, but I feel it's also ignored due to it's speed being nerfed by the uzi. A digging tool in a future release could fix this, but until then I think it could use some TLC. Maybe an extended clip? Although with the reload of 1, this might make it even more so just a high damage beretta... It might not fit the weapon, but maybe make this the only secondary weapon with a scope (see farther based on cursor position)?

And mostly an off-hand observation, but the G36C could maybe use a shorter reload time? When I compare it to the Famas, the higher DPS of the G36C seems like it just gets a bit too canceled out by it's higher cooldown. Plus most primary weapons have a high cooldown, so this would help to balance that stat.

Edit: I wasn't going to answer this since (I feel very biased), but figured might as well...

Instantanous Damage - 14
Speed/Cooldown - 39 (29 if precision above 30))
Magazine/Bullets per clip - 24
Reload - 4 (9 if precision above 30)
Precision - 14 (19 if precision above 30)
SCOPE - 5 - I miss having a scope so much ;_; (even if it does give me motion sickness since I use weapons with it so seldom now =p)

Edit2: About SPAS nerf; don't forget that that's at 40 health, so a nerf of 3.3 wouldn't be the 100% end of the world... but I'd be fine with 3.4 if the precision was made maybe even worse? Such that short of having the gun sticking into you 1-2 shots would miss you even at relatively close range. Or maybe keep the precision as-is, but make shots more likely to go away from the center?

Dernière modification le

G36C needs a buff from 25 ammo > 30, i have a problem with its accuracy. AN95 needs an ammo buff from 20 > 25 and a lower cooldown time. M60 needs a bit higher damage and needs a slight nerf for that too happen.
I also believe that famas needs an ammo boost to maybe 38. OR 35 ammo and a slight precision boost.
And Obviously steyer aug needs to go back to the 4-5 damage it used to have.

Fewfre a dit :
Only you can make me not eye-roll with a thread named "OFFICIAL FANMADE" (considering your stuff often seems more official than actual official stuff =p).

Anywho, not to complain, but all your nerfs / bumps currently seem to be for the damage stat; which I'm fine with (easiest to visualize), but it seems some should maybe have different tweaks?

Also, I know the "Precision" / Reload time for the M60 is supposed to balance it, but I feel it having the same cooldown and damage as the M4 A1 still makes it a little to powerful, considering it's the only weapon you can't logically really just "wait out". The high reload time might make it balanced it if you could wait it out (like 40-50 ammo), but as it is you can usually just hide while you reload it. I mean, it has the same Precession as the MP5 which really isn't that bad... I'd vote for a small nerf to the precision (an extra 5 maybe?). I'd also like a small nerf to the cooldown, but that might just be greedy...

I feel the Beretta 9mm could use an slightly extended clip (+3?), since it's DPS isn't the best, it's the default weapon, and it's main "strength" (speed) is overshadowed so powerfully by the Uzi.

The Glock seems fairly well balanced, but I feel it's also ignored due to it's speed being nerfed by the uzi. A digging tool in a future release could fix this, but until then I think it could use some TLC. Maybe an extended clip? Although with the reload of 1, this might make it even more so just a high damage beretta... It might not fit the weapon, but maybe make this the only secondary weapon with a scope (see farther based on cursor position)?

And mostly an off-hand observation, but the G36C could maybe use a shorter reload time? When I compare it to the Famas, the higher DPS of the G36C seems like it just gets a bit too canceled out by it's higher cooldown. Plus most primary weapons have a high cooldown, so this would help to balance that stat.

Edit: I wasn't going to answer this since (I feel very biased), but figured might as well...

Instantanous Damage - 14
Speed/Cooldown - 39 (29 if precision above 30))
Magazine/Bullets per clip - 24
Reload - 4 (9 if precision above 30)
Precision - 14 (19 if precision above 30)
SCOPE - 5 - I miss having a scope so much ;_; (even if it does give me motion sickness since I use weapons with it so seldom now =p)

Edit2: About SPAS nerf; don't forget that that's at 40 health, so a nerf of 3.3 wouldn't be the 100% end of the world... but I'd be fine with 3.4 if the precision was made maybe even worse? Such that short of having the gun sticking into you 1-2 shots would miss you even at relatively close range. Or maybe keep the precision as-is, but make shots more likely to go away from the center?

Don't worry. I am planning on boosting things other than damage.

For example, the an needs a clip AND damage boost.
Not a good idea to buff the m60's damage, rather its speed. [After all, it's a high pressure weapon] (or I can nerf the clip and buff the damage)
Steyr aug can do with a bit of a damage boost.
The g36, well, once the an is buffed, it will be outright better than the g36, so I'll need to decide some more on that.
The famas, I'm thinking of boosting its clip. Boosting the damage is a terrible idea.

I'll think about what can be done about weapon 2 since most of them are overshadowed by uzi.

E: I'm thinking of giving the uzi a nerf. Seeing as people think its the best possible digging option I think we should make it so that it may not necessarily be the best digging option. (Highly likely a drastic speed nerf, which will be the biggest risk we'll have to take if we're going ahead with it) The other option is giving it a drastic damage nerf, making it completely unsuitable for fighting. (But the digging problem will remain)

I'd like to avoid accuracy changes whenever possible - they're only reserved when it's too hard to fix a weapon without changing its accuracy.

And yeah, when I say official, it's the stuff we're actually going to send off to atelier 801.

=================
I'd like to post some of the current changes here to get opinions before I put it up.

SPAS 12 - Proposal 1
Damage: 3.8 -> 3.4
DPS: 38 -> 34
DPC: 96 -> 81.6

SPAS 12 - Proposal 2
Damage: 3.8 -> 3.3
Clip: 6 -> 7
DPS: 38 -> 33
DPC: 96 -> 92.4

AN 94
Damage: 2.5 -> 2.7 or 2.8
Clip: 20 -> 25
DPC: 55 -> 67.5 or 70
DPS: Approx. 17 or 18 -> Approx. 20 or 21

M60 - Proposal 1
Damage: 2 -> 2.2
Clip: 90 -> 80
DPC: 180 -> 176
DPS: 20 -> 22

M60 - Proposal 2
Cooldown: 100 -> 90
DPS: 20 -> 22.2

Steyr Aug
Damage: 4 -> 4.3 - 4.6 [Undecided]
DPS: 18.18 -> 19.5 - 20.9
DPC: 80 -> 86 - 92

G36C - Proposal 1
Clip: 25 -> 30
DPC: 55 -> 66
I refrained from boosting its damage output because it would become stronger than an mp5.

G36C - Proposal 2
Damage: 2.2 -> 2.4
DPS: 24.4 -> 26.7
DPC: 55 -> 60

Famas
Clip: 30 -> 33 - 35
DPC: 51 -> 56 - 59.5

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I really don't think Ump's damage needs to go up to 2.3

If you think about it, Ump is actually a really good weapon already and having it going up 2 > 2.3 that's way to good.

As Solfn said - 2.3 * 18 (the number of bullets per clip) = 41.4
Which means 1 clip can kill someone.

Ump's cooldown, precision and reload time are fine.

They could possibly make the clip 18 > 25 and the damage 2 > 1.5, since some people use Ump for digging.
So 25 * 1.5 = 37.5

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Ok. Let's compare The new Mp5 and the current Ump.

Mp5 (2.3 damage per shot)
DPS = 28.75

Ump (2.0 damage per shot)
DPS = 28.57

So yes you would have a point with ump being too strong if it went up to 2.3. I've revoked that change on the front page.

The main problem people have with ump is that it's a strong weapon but the clip absolutely sucks.

We need to take note that atelier buffed its ammo from 15 to 18 without changing its damage output. There was probably the reason that it was too strong.
But would you agree that something with a crappy clip should be stronger than something with a decent clip but bad accuracy and slower firing speed?

A good update to ump would be one where it could actually kill.
So we could just push the clip up to 20 and it would be fine there.
You need to recall that the ump 45 has amazing reload time as well.

Queries still to be discussed:

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#10

I like you "SPAS 12 - Proposal 2" - the increased DPC could still make the change "favorable", while still requiring an extra shot.

And if you're going to nerf Uzi, I feel that's the one weapon you should 100% nerf the damage on. As the only secondary weapon firing that fast, lowering the speed would just make it another hard-to-distinguish secondary. I feel secondaries should reflect a need not present with a primary; thus an Uzi (even with nerfed damage) complements slow firing weapons / weapons with low ammo.

Edit: Agreed, having ump be able to kill by increasing clip would be good.

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#11

Yeah. I'm pretty happy with the 2nd spas 12 proposal. It encourages spas users to use their secondaries instead of spamming shots with their primary weapon. It also rewards them with an extra shot (2 people killed w/ 3 shots and secondary fire) if they conserve properly. Plus, it gives them back the damage output per clip that we took away.

Let's think about nerfing the damage on the uzi. People will still basically be using it for digging, whilst completely ignoring the other secondary weapons. The only situation I can think of where it would make people reconsider is where their primary weapons run out of ammo. Meaning they're basically defenseless with their uzi. The other situation is where people would use the uzi for fighting. Pro snipers use the uzi a lot for fighting, when their snipers can't cut through enemy defenses.

So nerfing the uzi's damage might be a good idea but we're not really sure if it's a powerful enough nerf to make people consider using the other secondaries.

Current queries remaining:

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#12

See, when I say nerf Uzi I'm thinking by half the damage. If people want a digging weapon I feel we should take the option away; instead we should except it and just make it so using other secondaries isn't as much as a "punishment". Basically as it is now Uzi works fairly well as both an attacking and digging weapon; and thus I feel we are discussing is which we should remove. We already have 5 attacking secondaries, and the Uzi is obviously balanced with speed in mind, so I vote we keep it as a digger, but just "punish" you for using it.

Also, I don't see why we are buffing the M60 ;_; It already scares me (I mentioned my thoughts on it previously, so meh).

Upping the Famas' clip seems like a good way to buff it up while not having it be to similar to other weapons, and still keeping it in the same "weapon class".

AN 94 buff seems good, but I just don't have the patience to use it properly =p

Despite it being a Damage buff, the Steyr Aug changes seems good; I think it's cooldown fills in a nice gap, and increasing the clip on a "powerful" weapon at that speed seems both risky and yet also not helpful =p

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#13

I wrote this for the M60:

M60
- Greatest damage per clip in the game.
- Unsuitable for long range fighting.
- Indifferent in damage output over time at close range to the m4 a1

It basically means that people would rather use the m4 a1 because the m60 is basically useless unless you're fighting a mob or you've caught someone at close range, and a lot of weapons are more dangerous than it at close range. It's an oddity: a weapon with lower accuracy but is actually quite weak. But it's mainly attributed to that huge clip. We need an incentive to get people other than anti-mob players to use the m60 regularly.

Magazine/clips has a high rating according to the people who have voted in this thread, but we need to make an important distinction between the number of bullets in a clip that makes it comfortable to fire i.e. can afford to miss, and one that just fires endlessly. The p90 is a balanced weapon with low accuracy and a good clip but 90% of players would rather use the p90 over the m60 (regardless of how similar they are) because the m60's accuracy is unsuitable at long range. A lot of mob fights are long range.

Basically I'm buffing the m60 to give it a 'kick' at closer ranges to reward players for sacrificing their longer range ability. Buffing the damage but nerfing the clip means its not any more dangerous to a mob (which was its intentional purpose) but it is now better at dealing with individual players.

I've included a description of the effect of buffing or nerfing each part of a weapon in the parameters section.

=====

I also need some solid recommendations for the buffs and nerfs if you're agreeing with them; I've written down some ranges (the highest being the maximum acceptable number before it's outright better than another weapon) and I need to pick out a suitable number.

Current queries remaining:

The future version 1.37 stands as shown in the "summary of changes" section in the report.

E: All the new changes have been posted in the report. I need everyone to proof read it and see if it's okay, because these are the changes that may appear in fortoresse in the near future.

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#14

As a spas user,the bullets actually can't all hit the target.Because I have limit time stay close to enemies,when I'm just closer I will start shooting,I won't care if I'm at the exact right position to shoot.I rarely kill someone with three shots if he's full health.
So 3.4 or 3.3 has no big difference for me,if you want,then just 3.3 and one more clip.
And one thing,ppl doesn't always have full health.

About M60,I found it interesting.Before actually buying it and using it,I think it's junk.After using it,it's still limited to use in mob fight.However If the mob are spread around like my bullets are likely to go,then it's a good situation to use M60 or P90.
Then what's the advantage of M60 compared to P90?more bullets.I can maintain a long time of fire constantly.For enemy's view it looks one or two enemies are shooting which produce threat to enemies,which high fire rate or short reload gun cannot produce the same threat.
Also,I have been careful to count how often enemies come closer in a mob fight.The answer is often,and precision becomes useless in such short range.So when I was testing the poor precision gun,m60,it can kills any coming enemy quick,surprise me.
In short range it's a good weapon.
In long range,spam it somewhere the enemies are probably around,produce treat and some contribution to damage.
Of course,a big rule you have to follow.Don't be attractive.If you attract enemies,you die and waste a lot of the remained ammo.Suitable to those who is able to hide and live longer.
I support Proposal 2,fire rate become 11.11 would be great,as it's more important than damage for me.

For uzi and other SG(secondary guns),
The first question is,what can SG do?What's its position?
A. Able to fight when you can't use primary weapon.
B. A good weapon to fight
C. Other purpose,dig....

For reason A.,we rarely out of bullet of primary gun.Even we do,just die to refill.This is what major players do.
For reason B,Except for Uzi,who want to use a SG to fight when you have primary gun?No

Hence ppl use SG only for reason C.
Then what's the problem?The core problem is the game mechanism itself,which cannot be fixed by adjusting the guns parameters.
The game rule or mode has to produce more chance we can't use primary gun,
Or making all other SG s are valuable to use.

For more chance we can't use primary gun,simply just give few of clips instead of refill after death.With supplies,after death you have no more than 2 clips on your hand,including the ammo you are ready to shoot.In such dramatic change,SG will be useful,also ammo perk is important too!

However,image you have to kill me now with SG you pick.How long do you take to kill me?I won't escape,just conj.I guess I can survive more than one minute.SG is still too weak.

To make SG valuable to use.I have 2 suggestions.
1.Lower the recover of player to conj.When players conj power recovers slowly,we can no longer spam it everywhere to block bullets.Then SG can actually shoot enemy but not just conj anymore.

2.Headshot,when the bullet hits the part of head,80% or a change to deal more damage.Only SG have this ability.Is it attractive?Most SG can do this easily.

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#15

Well I've completed the final report. I want people to approve of everything before I hand it in. I'll give it one or two days.

I think adjusting the conj speed recovery is a bit too much to ask for now.

There's one big controversial change I want you guys to take note of: The uzi's damage per bullet is reduced from 1 to 0.6. Think about how secondaries are either used for digging or fighting.

Finally, a lot of weapons that went unloved will be noticed by fortoresse players.

[Solfn] without balancing out the weapons any person would just pick a spas or mp5
[Solfn] because they're too good
[Solfn] and never pick ak or an
[Solfn] now we're getting the mp5 users to consider ump 45
[Solfn] and the spas users to consider secondary weapon gameplay
[Solfn] and m4/famas users to consider an 94 and ak 47 and steyr aug
[Solfn] and p90 users to consider g36c ad m60

Every weapon will be loved. Nothing is left out.

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#16

@Siuker the first four secondary guns were actually meant to be balanced with the primary guns since the magazine was not limited back then.
They could have made the costs different e.g MP5 is a great weapon it should cost 250 potatoes, AN-94 isn't a great weapon 100 potatoes (for you guys that is, AN-94 seems great to me)

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#17

Leave the SPAS-12 alone, looks like you never played when his power was around 3 (but without his 6 shots "clip" ) .

SPAS-12 is good like that and the range is another good reason to leave him alone again.

But making the M40 A5 a one bullet per clip weapon is a nice idea for me (with a lightspeed reload of course) and the weapon will act like in real life, bolt-action sniper rifle... it's good for triple sniper shot hackers and a new sniper rifle in the armory too.

#18

The m40 a5 is perfect in terms of damage. The crouch damage is 10 and can be healed off completely.

I know about the old spas 12. It was the joke of fortoresse. Anyone using spas would be lol'd at. The sound of spas was a joke too. I have videos of the time when spas was weak, so I definitely did play back then.

Spas is still the strongest weapon (not necessarily the best), I've just toned down its influence.

@ Cheddar now the guns basically stand as equals and are classed out, so they cost the same.

Anyways it seems like people (players I've interviewed on fort, or veterans of fort) are generally happy with the changes so I'll make little tweaks before submitting it, in case something is overpowered or underpowered.

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#19

It's due to an update, better than a glitched, terraforming and almost harmless weapon but I'm not remember about the sound... only for the .357 Magnum (who sound like a powerful gun) .

Just keep the 3 shots kill.

EDIT : It's the same sound...

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#20

When I say sound, it basically means that the sound wasn't any different, it just had a different meaning.

Also I'm going to quantify a new value on the weapon stats. Weapons need to be graded on how well they cut through conjure.

E: Done. The formula's not set in stone, it's just to give a rough idea of how each weapon compares. I'm trying to make a formula that works against ping.

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