How to rebalance the game? (Is spas/mp5 really op?)

What change would solve the weapon balancing issue? What's really the problem?
Please read the information below to get some inspiration for an answer.
It seems we may be getting hints at the zombie update being continued (unless the recent images are just being dumped from an old project). We need to guide atelier801 to make the correct changes to the biggest problem in this game.

Firstly, we need to acknowledge that spas 12, mp5 and m40 a5 are the three abused weapons that are unbalanced. What changes would make them fair? Are they actually fair?

Spas, mp5 and m40 are too strong compared to other weapons.
This means that we need to bring down the powers of spas, mp5 and m40 a5 to make them fair.

==PROS==
- Other weapons stand a chance and won't be beaten out by players who simply charge in and out-damage the weaker weapons with their massive DPS (official gaming term for damage per second)
- The medic perk is more useful and more skilled players have a chance to get away from these weapons without suffering damage instantly that the medic perk is too weak to heal up.
- A lot less coding by the admins
- Glitching tactics are somewhat thwarted; not as annoying as before.

==CONS==
- Camping, the tactic most hated by players who use the spas 12, mp5 and m40, will be on the rise as it will be harder to kill enemies with these weapons before they run away and hide behind a wall of conjuration.
- The users of spas 12 and mp5 will become unrewarded and easy kill targets for other weapons and will be unable to approach, now only being restricted to tactical and careful approaches contrary to the style of shotguns in other games.
- Games slow down. Camping becomes a bigger issue.
- Terrorism-style bombing will become more frequent as players become increasingly frustrated with their lack of ability to kill.

Weapons that are not the spas, mp5 and m40 a5 are too weak.
What if it's not these apparently grossly unbalanced weapons that are the problem, but they're actually balanced and the rest of the weapons are utter trash? This option explores the other side of the coin. Buff all the other weapons massively so they have a chance at competing with the top 3 weapons.

==PROS==
- Say bye-bye to campers. Now it will be easy to kill enemies before they slip away and hide behind annoying and thick walls to heal.
- Formerly weak weapons have a chance to deal with charging foes and punish them before they get close, DPS difference is no longer an issue.
- The spas 12 and mp5 can still charge in and pull surprise attacks if they want to. The playstyle still supports them.
- Matches will go by faster; it will be easier for a single player to defeat an entire enemy team who is just sitting in their fortresses unable to be shot.
- Abuseable bombs will see less of a use. Terrorism strategies will be thwarted more easily. Spawn campers will die more quickly.
- The end of weapons that can't kill (e.g. ump 45)

==CONS==
- The medic perk is now too weak and completely useless for anything unless given a GOOD balance (not increasing the rate of healing.. it's still a bad perk because enemies can chase you down and chip away your hard earned healing)
- Secondary weapons will dwindle in popularity, outmatched by stronger primary weapons unless their ammo counts are even more restrictive.
- Glitchers will profit, being able to pull off surprise attacks leveraged by the ping of their opponents; being able to take massive chunks out of an enemy's health before they can react (even though this is already happening)
- A lot more recoding required by the admins

Something else must be done.
Are these two not the solutions? What else can we do?

==SOME IDEAS==
- Lower the maximum HP of players to simulate the above 2 options simultaneously
- Fix or replace conjuration
- Fix the shelter, rage, defense and medic perks

Spas, mp5 and m40 are too strong compared to other weapons.

Weapons that are not the spas, mp5 and m40 a5 are too weak.

Something else must be done -- read thread

I didn't even realize mp5 was a problem until I saw this thread. But after trying it today, it does seem overpowered. Spas is obviously unbalanced. M40 is hard for me to comment on since I'm terrible with it, but it does seem harder to beat than other weapons when in the hands of pros.

I would rather the spas, mp5, and m40 be nerfed than everything else buffed. My frustration with these weapons (well, mostly just Spas) isn't so much that I keep getting killed by them, but rather that I can be killed so quickly. This would still be a problem if we made other weapons more powerful.

I would like shelter and conjuration to be less effective too, ideally. And I say this as someone who uses conjuration excessively.

Nerfed SPAS 12 a dit :
Clip size : 4 (at the very beginning of Fortoresse, that was like that) .

Slower reload.

The weapon must be a three-shot-kill or need to keep a fast time to kill otherwise SPAS 12 users are screwed too much at close range on a single target (with full HP) , when the damage was nerfed to 3 (still followed by the increased clip size) that was too hard to attack a player and not taking too much damage.

I tried to play with 4 shots in the SPAS one day, not bad... the weapon don't lose his killing power (just the ability to double kill full HP players) .

Of course three-shot-kill with 6 in the magazine on a single target is too much but I believe with 4 shots and how it's easy to evade some pellets would give a nice opportunity to screw the SPAS (mostly for the MP5 and the UMP 45) .

Because the UMP 45 is like the high risk high reward weapon (maybe without the reward) the SPAS 12 should be on the same level, high risk high reward...

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Pfft, MP5 is fine! *hides my MP5 behind my back* It's only the other OP guns that are the problem! *cough*

Personally, I'd prefer a middle approach to first two options. I think some guns could definitely be more powerful, and others (the OP ones especially) weaker.

or reoptimize the servers <

I'd actually prefer seeing HP being changed and lesser DPC weapons getting buffed. I'll explain it all later, when i get my hands on my precious computer.

Personally, I'd see HP being lowered a little because it means we can make some of the other perks more powerful (but bombs, spas, mp5 and m40 a5 must be nerfed), and it's a little less changing around than just making the other weapons stronger. It means that the weapons considered weaker right now are technically buffed without changing their values.

Also, it's possible to technically manage to change your M40 A5's time to kill to the same as an M4 A1 by making use of a damage dealing secondary weapon such as the glock or desert eagle (personally I am using the desert eagle because of the weapon rate of fire bug), so that alongside its hit and run ability makes it superior to even m4 a1, given the user is skilled enough.

There are some corrections I want to make to the opening post but polls do not allow edits.
Corrections: Ump 45 is stated to not be able to kill -- I mean that it cannot kill in one clip, and so it has a large time to deal 40hp, making it less ideal in 1v1 situations.

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personally I would like the medic pack to be a little bit stronger as it has really no effect in front of the overwhelming attacking powers.
also I would prefer a stronger attacking force rather than weakening the guns, so as to discourage camping and slowing down the games.

I think improving the other remaining guns would be a good option, choosing the gun means that it is effective in killing.

I want to see the medic perk have a faster method of healing than it does now. The area of effect is great for groups but it's pathetic solo and just encourages camping because most people only need to use it for solo purposes (and it's so easily countered by spam fire). I understand the need to keep it the way it is so people don't just use it solo but they could make it work like the ammunition perk. When activated, it spits out one medic pack so you heal 10hp right away, then the remains can be used by the team. So you can go right back to the action.

And yes, making all the other guns strong instead of nerfing the strongest ones will stop people from running away from your shots to heal while hiding behind annoying amounts of conj, since you can just kill them before they have a chance to run.

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We can't just have all guns to be as strong as the OP ones, that'd be spamming expecting to kill in a second. its a type of shooting game where you get a change to counter attack even after being hit many times and should stay that way.

However, i believe that nerfing the op guns will prevent current players from using it if the nerf seems as if it doesn't do enough damage. This is why i suggest avoid touching the damage and instead rework other stats like clips and weapon rate of fire.

I agree with the suggestion of the medic where it will spit out 10 hp right away and the remains can be used for your team and to make it somewhat fair, opponents.

EDIT: Right now i'm feeling like there has to be some solution with least amount of cons. We need to prevent forced bombings and glitching tactics that are unfair to those with different pings as well as balance all the weapons to encourage smarter play stlyes. However i would like to avoid nerfing any weapon,

My suggestion is to buff the weak perks such as rage shield and medic perk. The bombs should be reworked in a way where they still have the same damage but their killing potential is lowered.

Next we would have to buff the other weapons including the SECONDARY weapons except for uzi which is already OP. And to fix the glitching problem, admins would need to change up the gaming engine where it is still possible to use conj like we do now but glitches like Half glitching will be impossible, and just like forteresse extinction traveling by glitching is slower making it easier for players to react to glitchers. This will still give glitchers the freedom to continue their playstyle.

This cuts down most of the cons leaving with the problem of a lot more recoding for the admins which basically means that we have to wait longer for any balancing update, another con is whether or not they can change the game engine without having misplaced files and any changes that would prevent current tactics but are needed to pull off switching the game engine that is needed to balance glitching.

An example would be the incapability to CJS and propel in air. Fighting will also be VERY limited to ground and those who make it to air level will be at a high advantage.

EDIT 2:
I've recently noticed that a friend of mine went from M60 to spas12.
This is significant because he used to die a lot and not get many kills when using m60 which i believe is his best gun. However because he is a tribe leader in BR server, he participates in tribe vs tribe challenges. And often times he dies fastest because the rest is Spas Mp5 and sniper. He can become more of a threat if they didn't rush to him so fast. There isn't any competition, its all OP weapons. So to keep up he HAD to switch to spas. The key word here is had. Because it wasn't a choice. If he wanted to participate in these tribe wars, he had to change. And for some reason, first couple of days he was already getting more kills.
Proof that we need balancing.

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#10

holistergo a dit :
We can't just have all guns to be as strong as the OP ones, that'd be spamming expecting to kill in a second. its a type of shooting game where you get a change to counter attack even after being hit many times and should stay that way.

However, i believe that nerfing the op guns will prevent current players from using it if the nerf seems as if it doesn't do enough damage. This is why i suggest avoid touching the damage and instead rework other stats like clips and weapon rate of fire.

I agree with the suggestion of the medic where it will spit out 10 hp right away and the remains can be used for your team and to make it somewhat fair, opponents.

EDIT: Right now i'm feeling like there has to be some solution with least amount of cons. We need to prevent forced bombings and glitching tactics that are unfair to those with different pings as well as balance all the weapons to encourage smarter play stlyes. However i would like to avoid nerfing any weapon,

My suggestion is to buff the weak perks such as rage shield and medic perk. The bombs should be reworked in a way where they still have the same damage but their killing potential is lowered.

Next we would have to buff the other weapons including the SECONDARY weapons except for uzi which is already OP. And to fix the glitching problem, admins would need to change up the gaming engine where it is still possible to use conj like we do now but glitches like Half glitching will be impossible, and just like forteresse extinction traveling by glitching is slower making it easier for players to react to glitchers. This will still give glitchers the freedom to continue their playstyle.

This cuts down most of the cons leaving with the problem of a lot more recoding for the admins which basically means that we have to wait longer for any balancing update, another con is whether or not they can change the game engine without having misplaced files and any changes that would prevent current tactics but are needed to pull off switching the game engine that is needed to balance glitching.

An example would be the incapability to CJS and propel in air. Fighting will also be VERY limited to ground and those who make it to air level will be at a high advantage.

EDIT 2:
I've recently noticed that a friend of mine went from M60 to spas12.
This is significant because he used to die a lot and not get many kills when using m60 which i believe is his best gun. However because he is a tribe leader in BR server, he participates in tribe vs tribe challenges. And often times he dies fastest because the rest is Spas Mp5 and sniper. He can become more of a threat if they didn't rush to him so fast. There isn't any competition, its all OP weapons. So to keep up he HAD to switch to spas. The key word here is had. Because it wasn't a choice. If he wanted to participate in these tribe wars, he had to change. And for some reason, first couple of days he was already getting more kills.
Proof that we need balancing.

I'm a Tribe Leader in BR and i do top frag using autos such as G3. That's not something all players do. Some of the most pro BRs actually got "born" trying to use m40 against the rest. So...

#11

We take full damage from the C4 or the land mine even if your foot is in the blast radius... just change this that would be a good nerf for now.

And M60 is like a support weapon.

#12

holistergo a dit :
We can't just have all guns to be as strong as the OP ones, that'd be spamming expecting to kill in a second. its a type of shooting game where you get a change to counter attack even after being hit many times and should stay that way.

However, i believe that nerfing the op guns will prevent current players from using it if the nerf seems as if it doesn't do enough damage. This is why i suggest avoid touching the damage and instead rework other stats like clips and weapon rate of fire.

I think it's more that weapons need to become potent enough to kill before spam becomes effective.
The problem with giving players too many chances is that they'll become dependent on these many chances and just run away constantly because they'll always have an option to sit back and heal away behind a thick wall since weapons can't kill fast enough before they can run away in the beginning.
Not every one of the weapon 1 needs buffing. They can just become a little more skewed towards their intended function. E.g. m60 can stay a little weaker so it's intended as a spray and spam weapon. Meanwhile, m4 a1 and an 94 need to be a bit more potent and require more skill to aim so spam isn't a problem; players just don't know how to block these weapons, and many aren't aware of their wasting of ammo when spamming these weapons.

E: I've had a study of the balancing in other games. In halo 5 you can do really well with the magnum (pistol) if you're skilled and get frequent headshots. If you can't, then you use the assault rifle to make up for lost damage per second instead.

The more op weapons are restricted access e.g. the sniper rifle and shotgun. The shotgun is incapable of headshotting so a magnum could beat it out, but the shotgun can kill or almost kill in one shot.

Either way, the weapons kill much much faster than in fort. Spam and spray isn't a problem because skill can beat it out and it's much easier to recover lost HP.

E2: I gave the deagle a try. It has the most similar pace to the halo 5 magnum, and the only HP it feels comfortable to kill an opponent with is at 25HP.
A buff of that amount is the only way to give fort proper pacing.

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#13

Brandonnst a dit :
holistergo a dit :
We can't just have all guns to be as strong as the OP ones, that'd be spamming expecting to kill in a second. its a type of shooting game where you get a change to counter attack even after being hit many times and should stay that way.

However, i believe that nerfing the op guns will prevent current players from using it if the nerf seems as if it doesn't do enough damage. This is why i suggest avoid touching the damage and instead rework other stats like clips and weapon rate of fire.

I agree with the suggestion of the medic where it will spit out 10 hp right away and the remains can be used for your team and to make it somewhat fair, opponents.

EDIT: Right now i'm feeling like there has to be some solution with least amount of cons. We need to prevent forced bombings and glitching tactics that are unfair to those with different pings as well as balance all the weapons to encourage smarter play stlyes. However i would like to avoid nerfing any weapon,

My suggestion is to buff the weak perks such as rage shield and medic perk. The bombs should be reworked in a way where they still have the same damage but their killing potential is lowered.

Next we would have to buff the other weapons including the SECONDARY weapons except for uzi which is already OP. And to fix the glitching problem, admins would need to change up the gaming engine where it is still possible to use conj like we do now but glitches like Half glitching will be impossible, and just like forteresse extinction traveling by glitching is slower making it easier for players to react to glitchers. This will still give glitchers the freedom to continue their playstyle.

This cuts down most of the cons leaving with the problem of a lot more recoding for the admins which basically means that we have to wait longer for any balancing update, another con is whether or not they can change the game engine without having misplaced files and any changes that would prevent current tactics but are needed to pull off switching the game engine that is needed to balance glitching.

An example would be the incapability to CJS and propel in air. Fighting will also be VERY limited to ground and those who make it to air level will be at a high advantage.

EDIT 2:
I've recently noticed that a friend of mine went from M60 to spas12.
This is significant because he used to die a lot and not get many kills when using m60 which i believe is his best gun. However because he is a tribe leader in BR server, he participates in tribe vs tribe challenges. And often times he dies fastest because the rest is Spas Mp5 and sniper. He can become more of a threat if they didn't rush to him so fast. There isn't any competition, its all OP weapons. So to keep up he HAD to switch to spas. The key word here is had. Because it wasn't a choice. If he wanted to participate in these tribe wars, he had to change. And for some reason, first couple of days he was already getting more kills.
Proof that we need balancing.

I'm a Tribe Leader in BR and i do top frag using autos such as G3. That's not something all players do. Some of the most pro BRs actually got "born" trying to use m40 against the rest. So...

Its because sniper is mostly hand eye coordination, one shot is essential and with sniper being easy to block by walls, you have to find blind spots.
Thats why most "pro" players naturally have the ability to use sniper decently.
And i believe that the spas spammers are the ones that we should be least afraid of. The ones who are patient and know when being above ground is a disadvantage are the smarter ones. This player will try to get below you and yes they WILL spam the spas if you're trying to get away. Never have i seen a spas player not do spam for the sake of it. And i should say that Mp5 is the same deal. This would explain why you can use these autos effectively when around OP guns. So ill be blunt, There is close to NO player who will follow what i just presented. Because when facing Advance players, you won't be able to get any chance to hit all 4 shots, HOWEVER it will be easy to hit 2-3 in a row and more or less when spamming it from a ridiculous range.

#14

Spas, mp5 and m40 are too strong compared to other weapons.

#15

So from the poll results, I have to conclude that people are very evenly distributed. Some believe the game goes too slow (which is true, there is a problem in domination especially), some people think they die too quickly and the game is too biased against teams that abuse overpowered weapons. There is a limited range of newer suggestions placed under other changes.

Lately, I have been playing metal assault, which is a 2D shooter that is metal slug themed and the gameplay is somewhat like fortoresse (and there are some elements that have been suggested on fort which are on metal assault). There are a few changes that could be adopted from the metal assault model that would fix a lot of the behavioural problems in this game. Unfortunately, there are others that would not help at all and I probably need a bit more experience to pick those away from the game.

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#16

Recently i started wondering how do laggy glitchy players....play? It seems impossible to play with lag as your weapons do not register neither do you have the capability to move to the desired destination. When i have lag even the slightest such as 400 500 ping i can't play at all. Frames start dropping and i teleport. Some say teleporting is beneficial. Now why am i saying this? Because these laggy players who are capable of playing with it either use spas 12 sniper or mp5. So when i look at the weak guns and add lag. I dont see anyone doing dmg. So i ask people, how is this possible??

#17

holistergo a dit :
Recently i started wondering how do laggy glitchy players....play? It seems impossible to play with lag as your weapons do not register neither do you have the capability to move to the desired destination. When i have lag even the slightest such as 400 500 ping i can't play at all. Frames start dropping and i teleport. Some say teleporting is beneficial. Now why am i saying this? Because these laggy players who are capable of playing with it either use spas 12 sniper or mp5. So when i look at the weak guns and add lag. I dont see anyone doing dmg. So i ask people, how is this possible??

Sometimes, when lagged, if you keep shooting at your enemy, even if he runs away you hit the shots. That's a situation where lag is so beneficial that it grants free kills.

#18

Generally, the more lag there is, the less reflexes matter.

So at max lag, you can't react to anything. If you don't have the DPS to kill your enemy, you lose.

#19

It might be better to nerf strong weapons than buffing the weak ones (even though some of those weapons do need to be buffed in some way) in a game where the bullets fly instantly and the lag that doesn't help much.

#20

3 vs me... i had the spas and won :0

my tribemates are kinda noobs tbh

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