Anythin a dit :

Tomdizzy a dit :VoirMasquer

the compensation is the large range, not shaman skills.

That doesn't change the fact that the balance will be gone once these shaman skills are removed.

What grounds do you say this on



These are b planks, in v mode.

I've already explained on what grounds I based it on, I don't feel like repeating myself so here's just the copy paste. Also these screenshots are never really convincing when they aren't taken in a full room of mice. You can say it makes no difference but reality disagrees with that.

Anythin a dit :

With the amount of maps in rotation that gives shamans little to nothing to do, it's hard to say that there's a significant difference in difficulty between normal mode, hard mode and even divine mode. Even when it does come to the point a shaman needs to build, the hard mode shaman has a b nail available through it's totem which makes building a piece of cake and barely different than normal mode. In divine mode, the shaman has the availability of shaman skills like the ones discussed in this thread, to compensate the loss of the totem. If these shaman skills are removed, there is no compensation for the totem and thus it makes building a lot more harder. The balance will be gone.

/support

Anythin a dit :

I've already explained on what grounds I based it on, I don't feel like repeating myself so here's just the copy paste. Also these screenshots are never really convincing when they aren't taken in a full room of mice. You can say it makes no difference but reality disagrees with that.

I think a room full of mice is irrelevant when i can do this

Tomdizzy a dit :

Anythin a dit :VoirMasquer

I've already explained on what grounds I based it on, I don't feel like repeating myself so here's just the copy paste. Also these screenshots are never really convincing when they aren't taken in a full room of mice. You can say it makes no difference but reality disagrees with that.

I think a room full of mice is irrelevant when i can do this

You can only do that because the plank does not alter its orientation with restorative. But if you try to cannon it from the side, it would move and fall off still.

/no support

It's like my suggestion for a good medium doesn't exist.

/support

Divine mode is supposed to be harder than easy/hard mode and the big plank and restorative makes it just like hard mode.

Chocojell a dit :

You can only do that because the plank does not alter its orientation with restorative. But if you try to cannon it from the side, it would move and fall off still.

We're well aware of that. Obviously, it would have to be secured from the sides to an extent. But with the fixed orientation it has the same function as a b plank. It will not move no matter how much weight is put on it.
If that's not OP for a V building mode, then what is? Why don't we just allow clouds in divine if this is totally okay?

Lucycat a dit :

It's like my suggestion for a good medium doesn't exist.

A medium would probably not work, unfortunately, either this stays or goes completely. Even using a single long plank and restorative is still very OP for divine mode.

Catsloveraj put it in a much simpler way, very briefly explaining what apparently, paragraphs does not give to help you people understand.

What I suggested didn't have to do with just Divine mode either, but the "balance" within the other modes as well. If this is fixed, Hard mode has to be fixed too. If just one plank and just one Restorative is OP, then we Divine shamans shouldn't have the skills that are limited to us already such as the Spring.

/half support
Maybe allow only one restorative, since more than that makes divine too easy.

Chocojell a dit :

Tomdizzy a dit :VoirMasquer

Anythin a dit :VoirMasquer

I've already explained on what grounds I based it on, I don't feel like repeating myself so here's just the copy paste. Also these screenshots are never really convincing when they aren't taken in a full room of mice. You can say it makes no difference but reality disagrees with that.

I think a room full of mice is irrelevant when i can do this

You can only do that because the plank does not alter its orientation with restorative. But if you try to cannon it from the side, it would move and fall off still.

So put a plank on each side and its invincible

Lucycat a dit :

What I suggested didn't have to do with just Divine mode either, but the "balance" within the other modes as well. If this is fixed, Hard mode has to be fixed too. If just one plank and just one Restorative is OP, then we Divine shamans shouldn't have the skills that are limited to us already such as the Spring.

please read what I wrote. Divine mode has completely different physics compared to easy/hard mode.
http://atelier801.com/topic?f=6&t=809534&p=6#m115
restorative and big planks dont change much hard mode.

Anythin a dit :

Gekkeiju a dit :VoirMasquer

w w wait. Anythin you have no saves in divine mode???
imagine someone who has never completed a single bootcamp arguing something on a bootcamp-related discussion thread. what do you know about divine mode? or do you have another account for playing divine mode??

I'd appreciate it if you discussed with me based on the things I say, not based on what my stats are. Having divine mode saves does in no way mean you know what you're talking about (reason explained above), just like having no divine mode saves doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

you just don't know how ridiculously restorative and big planks make divine mode easy and ruin its physics.

Anythin a dit :

Gekkeiju a dit :VoirMasquer

people should not be allowed to choose a drastically easy ways in divine mode because it has stats. As you may know, divine mode saves are counted separately from the other two modes. in other words, divine mode is a target for pursuing numerical experience to get prestige. the same as firsts, rounds of racing, rounds of survivor and bootcamp completes. there shouldn't be shortcuts or drastically easy ways to farm. they all should be kept fun and, at the same time, hard enough to protect their prestige.
what if firsts count in a room with 2 mice? what if bootcamp had 2 types of rooms:"easy"-easier maps only and "hard"-harder maps only, and people could choose whichever they like? would more people welcome it and come to play?

There is no prestige when playing p0, p1, vanilla, art or mechanism maps that require no building at all (pretty much half of the rotation). With or without these shaman skills. So your whole story is pointless. .

1. if so, people never need restorative and big planks in P0, P1, vanilla, art or mechanism maps that require no building at all.
2. and, the other maps requiring building are giving prestige to divine mode players. they shouldn't be allowed to use shortcut there.
therefore restorative and big planks shouldn't be allowed.

3. if no prestige with divine mode, why do people try to play it?

a dit :

I guess if you want a real challenge, modules like divinity are the place to go

OH thanks! xd

I don't understand your post at all, but I still stand by what I said that red nails need to be removed from totems and that if everyone doesn't like the extremes there should be a middle.

Gekkeiju a dit :

you just don't know how ridiculously restorative and big planks make divine mode easy and ruin its physics.

What makes you think I don't know what these shaman skills do to building? Maybe I simply don't agree with you on that statement, instead of not knowing what they can do. What I know is that removing these skills makes divine mode too hard for the average player. That's my opinion, you agree with it or you don't.

Gekkeiju a dit :

1. if so, people never need restorative and big planks in P0, P1, vanilla, art or mechanism maps that require no building at all.
2. and, the other maps requiring building are giving prestige to divine mode players. they shouldn't be allowed to use shortcut there.

3. if no prestige with divine mode, why do people try to play it?

Then we might as well remove all shaman skills altogether because the other ones aren't being used on those maps either. But do you really see that happening?
People now play divine mode because you can unlock titles by gathering divine mode saves. But when they realize it becomes near to impossible to ever unlock all of these titles then they won't bother anymore.

I keep seeing people complaining about this and i'm gonna be completely honest..
If you're complaining you are probably one of the people using big plank and restorative in divine to getsves and are just mad that you will no longer be able to sham/farm in divine If they are removed.

practice on hard mode or practice building in utility.
and if you want a real challenge, try divinity.

*steps out of thread*

Anythin a dit :

What makes you think I don't know what these shaman skills do to building? Maybe I simply don't agree with you on that statement, instead of not knowing what they can do. What I know is that removing these skills makes divine mode too hard for the average player. That's my opinion, you agree with it or you don't.

Divine mode shouldn't be intended for the average player; At least not one with 5000 saves. The average player with 5000 saves didnt even know the concept of v building existed before this mode. If atelier wanted to make this mode easier and more accessible they could add in a highly restricted totem or raise the requirements for divine mode so that players are more adept at building before taking on this challenge. What should NOT be done is giving everyone a free pass to solve any map with:

1: High speed
2: Practically invincible build
3: Little to no physics/thought process

These 3 things are the opposite of what a real divine build should be; real divine building takes much longer than traditional building and is much less secure. It also relies very heavily on the users understanding of physics, much of which can be learned in hard mode (which players now leave after 3000 saves).

Anythin a dit :

Then we might as well remove all shaman skills altogether because the other ones aren't being used on those maps either. But do you really see that happening?
People now play divine mode because you can unlock titles by gathering divine mode saves. But when they realize it becomes near to impossible to ever unlock all of these titles then they won't bother anymore.

Tomdizzy a dit :

Removing all skills isn't exactly something i'd be opposed to, but it's not exactly necessary either. As long as the most powerful skills are removed (ie the ones in this thread) then the challenge remains about the same.

I don't think it's fair to say that people will quit because something is difficult. Sure maybe some people will, but maybe then hardmode would actually get some attention. More realistically speaking, I think it's much more likely that players would start learning how to actually shaman and better themselves; share ideas with friends and perhaps even invent new building techniques never seen before.

If a player is not willing to better theirself, I don't think they deserve saves in the final mode.

The purpose of Divine Mode is to add another step to the challenge of building.
Divine Mode makes the shaman really think critically of the physics in Transformice.
Restorative and Long Planks remove that challenge of minding the physics.
Is there any more you can say about that?
People WILL use those skills because they simply can but who enables that behavior?
If the Administrators really see Divine Mode as a step up, they would have disabled certain skills that ruin that challenge.
People WILL want Divine Saves and Titles and what better way then simply using the easiest solution in Vanilla?
In the end it is simply, do we want people getting saves and titles easily or do we want people to actually LEARN to build as a shaman?
For a while now, people really do not know how how to build as a shaman because there was no tutorials and because there was introductions of shaman skills.
Both of those compounded a problem of an uneducated mass of shamans.
The reason WHY no one can build decently is because of those two problems and it WILL continue to exist for as long as those two problems exist.
Will people complain about the game being hard?
Yes but people will complain no matter what anyone does so it is less about working for what is popular and working for what is right.
Will Atelier801 lose players?
Sure but if Atelier801 can provide proper building tutorials, how much of the damage can be voided?
In my opinion, the thinking aspect of building is great for mental health and since most of the playerbase are kiddies, that is great for mental development yes?
Can there be a medium for Restorative and Long Planks?
Possibly, if we disabled long planks and enable only one restorative skill then Shaman can build a base that does not rotate on one plank.
Long planks will close whatever distance between mice and cheese/hole and make it too easy.
I still think we should disable Restorative and Long Planks in Divine Mode because Divine Mode is simply a challenge and a step up from the other building modes.
As stated, you need to be intimate with the building physics in Transformice to really become good and once you understand how it works, your building in other modes can improve thereotically.
What I see is that people are defending the otherwise because people have a choice to not use it.
Well, as I said, people WILL go through the easiest path and as long as the option of the easiest path is enabled, people WILL go through that path.
It is simply human nature.
Then as long as people go through that easiest path, shamans will just go backwards more and more making it even more difficult to remedy a problem as this.
If we think shaman as a way to understand building and physics, then we need to go through the path of making in-depth tutorials and making people actually work for their saves and titles.
If we think shaman as a way to make playing on maps more fun, then perhaps we should have an altogether separate mode for that?
And that separate mode can simply be called "Normal Mode".
You choose what you want to do as shaman but if you are going to advertise a "Challenging" mode of building, let it live to that moniker and while we are at it, teach the masses of how to build in shaman mode.
That is the core of the issue, people just do not learn how to build properly and at this moment in time, there is no pressure or reason to walk forward so they continually walk backwards ad infinitum.
You want to play around with skills as shaman? Fine that is your decision.
As a "Challenging" building mode though, that should not be allowable if it breaks the mechanics.
You want those saves and titles? Earn them, that is all.
It is enough that it is possible to farm other stats.

This is more than just Restorative and Long Planks because this is all about the Shaman Building at its most deepest.
Skills has always been a problem for Shaman Building because of it adulterates building while enabling a new direction of building.
This double sided problem becomes intense when stats are involved.
What skills to include? What skills to exclude?
And the skills we include, can they break building in any way?
I think we should just see stats as a measurement of how long someone played a game rather than their actual experience attaining those stats.
We have a module for Normal and Hard Mode Building and a module for only Divine Mode but is that really enough?
What if the problem is only a problem because as experienced shamans, we are frustrated by the "Impurities" of the building that is not really ours to dictate?
But what if the problem is when shamans take forever to build because of a lack of tutorials and experience?
I will say objectively that it is not our decision to decide how someone should build.
I will say objectively though that the trend of "Poor" shamans is a lack of tutorials and experience.
So again, as much as I am against skills, I think this thread argues about "Poor" shamans on the basis of stats and "Impurities" that is adopted by experienced shamans.
Rather than arguing about "Poor" Shamans on the basis of lack of education and experience..

Pardon for the long and convulsed post.

Anythin a dit :

People now play divine mode because you can unlock titles by gathering divine mode saves. But when they realize it becomes near to impossible to ever unlock all of these titles then they won't bother anymore.

do they? personally i play it because its fun.
if you're so adamant about lazy bad players getting instant gratification from whats supposed to be a challenging game mode, you may as well just give people the option to buy these titles with fraises instead of actually getting divine saves, and it would be just as ridiculous as what we have now

I've been wanting these and several other skills, perhaps even all, unavailable to divine mode shamans since day 1. But since people who want a challenge can simply opt to ignore those skills while building themselves, the only real benefit of this suggestion is these people getting more divine saves than the ones who haven't got a clue how to build without shaman skills. And since divine mode has been available, what, 2 years now, it would be fairly pointless to remove these skills now as lots of people have already accumulated 100k+ divine saves, the skills-reliant shamans included. Sure it might be easier for some people to catch up, but given the relatively low amount of regular rotation maps that actually require building, this suggestion would hardly make a difference if implemented because it's simply too late now.