Slowjoe a dit :

-100% support. I play vanilla and use divine mode not because they're easy but because I can be creative as shaman. I have no small collection of entertaining ways to solve the most mundane maps in the game. From mechanic bridges to ferris wheels to mechanical wall walkers that race each other. Removing restorative kills all of them and removing the long plank kills half of them and many of them can't be done without divine range. People will have to accept that at a certain point being a shaman is not that difficult no matter what mode or skills are available. There is more than one way to play this game. Consider the possibility that your suggestions may ruin other people fun. If I Had my way vanilla would just be maps where the mice couldn't get the cheese without the shaman's help and plenty of space to build.

the reason i made this thread is because i dislike the fact that many players make a joke out of this mode using these skills. Divine mode is supposed to be challenging, not something you can build spider walkers in. That is what we have easy mode for. If the range is such an issue for certain contraptions, you can consider the wings skill, but you can't really justify allowing players to solve maps with 1-3 planks just so a small niche of players can make ferris wheels.

/support

Where does it say that all maps must be solved using a minimum amount of planks? You shouldn't have to be a professional engineer to play Transformice, why not just let players build however they like?

Besides, divine mode is still generally more difficult than hard mode even with these skills. Sure some maps, like map 25, can be completed very quickly using long planks and restorative, but that's a vanilla map and they're not supposed to be overly challenging anyway. I'm pretty sure the majority of regular rotation shaman maps require more building than a few planks with restorative, which makes divine mode harder than the other modes. Because contrary to popular belief, two v anchors in the same spot does not equal a c anchor, meaning divine mode users need to at least be aware of torque and understand that the further away from an axis of rotation you get and the more weight you put on it, the more a build will rotate. Yes you can use restorative to stop it from rotating, but it's not that easy aiming it on a plank that's jumping up and down so you might need a box or something under the plank to stabilise it, making it the most difficult shaman mode without alienating the less experienced players.

razlem a dit :

/half support

I can build with or without those skills, but most of us would likely agree that those skills are irrelevant but at the same time, easy to the divine mode.
Maybe limit them (someone suggested this) like the cheese-giving skill OR probably make another mode where there are no skills and just the regular old items, just kidding.

I am expecting a shaman mode where we use rotating anchors lmao.

^

/support

No_0ne a dit :

but that's a vanilla map and they're not supposed to be overly challenging anyway.

Last I checked map 134 is more difficult than any map p4 has to offer. Also have you seen this

No_0ne a dit :

Because contrary to popular belief, two v anchors in the same spot does not equal a c anchor

Correct, so space them out a little and THEN you have a c nail.

No_0ne a dit :

making it the most difficult shaman mode without alienating the less experienced players.

What is the point of having a difficult mode if it's going to be full of cheats and shortcuts? In racing, mice who cannot perform advanced bootcamping techniques fall short of those who can; the same should prove true for shaman, no? It's simply unfair that shamans who can build actual builds get the same reward and result as those who make builds with bomb shelter durability using two overpowered skills.

No_0ne a dit :

why not just let players build however they like?

Because the average player will not admit that they're taking a cheap way out. They want their saves and nothing else, they could care less for the balance of the game. Should we also allow b and c planks in divine mode if the players wished it so? Wait, we already do!

/support

On hard mode or normal mode you would not need the balloons or the box used in that video, which further proves my point that divine mode is still the more difficult mode even with skills. And while some vanilla maps are indeed hard to complete, the simple ones are by far the majority.

A c anchor is one solitary anchor, putting two v anchors a bit apart is two separate anchors in separate locations which by the way proves that the shaman understands that the further away from each other the two anchors are, the more stable the anchored object will be. Not to mention you only have 10 arrow anchors, so you actually have to know the best times to use them and when to avoid them. This is something hard and normal mode shamans don't need to concern themselves with.

No_0ne a dit :

You shouldn't have to be a professional engineer to play Transformice

And nobody's forcing you to make a build more complicated than it has to be, nowhere in the divine mode announcement does it say that you must build using as many objects as possible so as not to take advantage of these "cheats" and "shortcuts". It simply states that divine mode is a more difficult shaman mode, which it is.

Just like nobody's forcing you to attempt shortcuts in racing, you choose to do so because you want an advantage over the rest which sometimes pays off and sometimes it doesn't. The same is true when it comes to shamans, the advantage from building without certain skills comes to show when you complete maps where these skills wouldn't have solved it on their own. And of course sometimes your restorative-free build might not work as well as you had hoped.

How is using building techniques that you are fully in your right to use, considered taking the cheap way out?

c'mon, shaman, just let people have their opinions.

No_0ne a dit :

On hard mode or normal mode you would not need the balloons or the box used in that video, which further proves my point that divine mode is still the more difficult mode even with skills.

If that's too much of a hassle for you, you could always spam it with arrow anchors and then tape it. These extra steps do not add nearly enough difficulty to warrant being a successor to hard mode.

No_0ne a dit :

And while some vanilla maps are indeed hard to complete, the simple ones are by far the majority.

I was meaning that P4 maps are very simple and easy, save for maybe one or two maps (just like vanilla).

No_0ne a dit :

How is using building techniques that you are fully in your right to use, considered taking the cheap way out?

With these two skills it is unnecessary to learn how to make a v build. You can play divine mode and earn all its titles whilst building using only makeshift hardmode/easymode tactics.

The main difference between hardmode and divine mode is that in hardmode your main objective is to prevent your build from flipping over (rotating). In divine mode, you must not only stop the rotation of your build itself, but every single object you spawn. This is where restorative comes in and ruins the challenge: it not only makes it impossible for the attached object to rotate, but almost everything it's connected to as well as long as the weight isn't obscenely undistributed. Restorative single handedly ruins both the challenges of divine mode, and even hardmode.

Big plank is about 133% the size of a large plank, and you have unlimited of them. This means that just by having the big plank skill, the amount of building you must do is about 2/3 regardless of what mode you're in.

You could have a shaman with only big plank and restorative, and another shaman with every other skill in the game. And shaman #1 would build faster and more stably than shaman #2 100% of the time, with a less complex build that requires almost no actual support.

Combine these two skills togther and you can:

1: build 33% less
2: build substantially faster
3: build in a fashion that is nearly impossible to destroy, even with say, 100 anvils falling on it (sound like easy mode?)

All this using only 2 of the 75 skills in the game.



This is cheap and overpowered. This is b planks in divine mode.

Divine mode announcement a dit :

To unlock the divine mode, you'll need to have saved at least 5000 mice in regular mode and 2000 in hard mode. But be warned: in divine mode there are no more red nails or yellow nails.

No more yellow or red nails, but you have a slew of things to achieve the exact same result!

Tomdizzy a dit :

What is the point of having a difficult mode if it's going to be full of cheats and shortcuts?

It still bothers me that you portray people who use skills to be cheaters. They're not cheaters, they simply use the features given to them by the admins. You have no right to call them cheaters and I wish you would refrain from doing so.

For me there is no point in continuing this discussion, because you don't seem to be able to see other people's perspective. The only thing you keep saying is that with these skills divine mode isn't difficult. What you don't seem to grasp is that even though YOU don't find it difficult enough due to the experience you have, there are plenty of people that struggle with divine mode the way it is, even with the use of skills. As long as you're not willing to acknowledge that there's no point in going on here.

Anythin a dit :

Tomdizzy a dit :VoirMasquer

What is the point of having a difficult mode if it's going to be full of cheats and shortcuts?

It still bothers me that you portray people who use skills to be cheaters. They're not cheaters, they simply use the features given to them by the admins. You have no right to call them cheaters and I wish you would refrain from doing so.

For me there is no point in continuing this discussion, because you don't seem to be able to see other people's perspective. The only thing you keep saying is that with these skills divine mode isn't difficult. What you don't seem to grasp is that even though YOU don't find it difficult enough due to the experience you have, there are plenty of people that struggle with divine mode the way it is, even with the use of skills. As long as you're not willing to acknowledge that there's no point in going on here.

I do not aim to target the players who use these skills, but rather the fact that these skills are available to them. Of course the average player
is going to want to use the most powerful skills so that they can earn divine saves by doing easy builds. This does not stop me from labeling restorative as a cheat or a shortcut to building.

If someone is unable to shaman divine mode with these skills, then they probably can't do hardmode either.

/support

/support

/support

Anythin a dit :

Tomdizzy a dit :VoirMasquer

What is the point of having a difficult mode if it's going to be full of cheats and shortcuts?

It still bothers me that you portray people who use skills to be cheaters. They're not cheaters, they simply use the features given to them by the admins. You have no right to call them cheaters and I wish you would refrain from doing so.

"if the admins suddenly decided to allow flyhacks in bootcamp they wouldnt be cheaters because the admins said so xDDDD"

Auroraclears a dit :

"if the admins suddenly decided to allow flyhacks in bootcamp they wouldnt be cheaters because the admins said so xDDDD"

Because using third party programs is exactly the same as using in-game features. Not.

So if the admins decided to add flying as a feature in the game you'd support the change?