Jealyhnew a dit :

and I believe all protected maps are supposed to be completed by a shaman without any spent skill points

Jealyhnew a dit :

While people don't have an infinite amount of consumables at any one time, it's still rather easy to receive more either from trading or events, not to mention 80 balls, pufferfish, pumpkins and paper balls are more than enough to completely ruin someone's shaman turn and first.

Jealyhnew a dit :

what about people who only play Transformice for one or two shaman turns every now and then? They might still want to get saves.

Anythin a dit :

So with that in mind, should all shaman and bootcamp maps (the ones in normal rotation) be removed aswell? Because noob shamans and noob players do not know how to finish these maps, but with your logic they have to be able to finish them. I don't agree with that statement. If someone chooses to shaman without skills, it's their choice that they might not be able to finish a map. Nowhere does it say that you're guaranteed to be able to finish a map, either through your own choices or through other players' choices. If you're shaman in divine mode and you get a super hard shaman map that you are unable to finish, does that mean this map should be removed or should you accept that faith because you could have chosen for a different shaman mode?

Anythin a dit :

The chances of this happening are quite slim. In fact, it's more often than not the shaman itself that's spawning a lot of balls with their shaman skills to block the hole or the cheese. Is that any different than consumables being thrown by normal players?

Anythin a dit :

There has always been a level of circumstance that decides if you can finish a map or not. Mice can lag through a plank, the shaman can mess up a build, mice can decide to push other mice off in a collision mode map, mice can die in a nightmode map, there are many examples. Mice can even collectively choose to kill themselves. In these scenarios the shaman will not get saves (or at least less). Does that mean mice should not be able to kill themselves in the first 30 seconds? I don't think so. These things is what makes every map unique because every time something different happens. Consumables simply add a bigger variety to that spectrum. You don't know if or when someone is going to use a consumables, which makes each map more unpredictable and in my opinion more fun.

Phonemouse a dit :

People don't have infinite consumables, so it can't go on forever.
Besides, trolling is a part of the game. It just adds to the fun.
It's not like it ruins the whole game. It ruins just one map, one time.
I don't like the idea of the game limiting us even further.

I agree with Phonemous, but /Half Support from me.

Jealyhnew a dit :

Sure some people might get upset about not being able to throw their precious chickens and snowballs right away, but trolls got by just fine long before consumables were a thing

Shadowtrophy a dit :

I think Jealy means that all maps should be theoretically possible to complete w/o shaman skills, Whether the shaman mouse is actually able to complete the map is their own win/loss.

Shadowtrophy a dit :

And nowhere did Jealy say that mice were not allowed to die for the first 30 seconds of the map, so I don't know where that assumption came from.

Shadowtrophy a dit :

Jealy is only talking about the mice that die from consumables (ex. a mouse throwing a snowball in a crowded and small platform while the shaman builds). There are peeps out there that actually have a hardcore dedication to "saving mice." That Snowball consumable is probably the leading cause of a shaman's "disciples" dying.

Jealyhnew a dit :

And the difference between the shaman's multiple balls skill and regular mice throwing them is that said shaman chose to use that skill despite knowing it would probably damage his/her chances of getting saves as opposed to someone else throwing balls without the shaman's consent, still ruining their shaman turn. Also, consumables not only affect shamans. It's hardly fair when someone's about to win a racing map, then someone else is waiting at the hole ready to throw a consumable to ruin their first.

Anythin a dit :

All maps are possible without shaman skills in theory, otherwise they should not be in normal rotation. None of the maps Jealyhnew mentions are theoretically impossible. They only become impossible because of what either the shaman does or what the players do.

Anythin a dit :

It's not an assumption, it's an example of the choices of players which leads to a shaman not getting saves. A player choosing to kill himself is the same as a player choosing to throw a consumable; in both cases the shaman loses saves. Except a consumable has a bigger impact. Should it therefore be limited? I don't see why it should.

Anythin a dit :

Does that mean mice should not be able to kill themselves in the first 30 seconds? I don't think so.

Anythin a dit :

Well a mouse that is not paying attention is a dead mouse. That's part of the charm of the game. If you don't pay attention to what's going on, you'll miss out on cheese or firsts. It's not just the player who throws the consumable who is to blame for this. At the same time, as a shaman you can expect consumables being thrown so it's your job to make sure to keep mice safe. How that's being done, is up to the shaman. It's not impossible, even without shaman skills.

Anythin a dit :

So then a shaman is allowed to troll with ball spawns which denies a player from becoming first, but a normal player is not allowed to troll with consumables because it denies a player from becoming first? That doesn't make sense does it?

Shadowtrophy a dit :

a person using a consumable to ruin the round makes that same decision for the shaman, which does anger some people (esp. the shaman if dedicated enough).

Brownnose a dit :

I understand your reasoning, but here is mine. A lot of the time mice will use consumables to help shamans get saves.

Shadowtrophy a dit :

Mice choosing to kill themselves do it out of their own decision. Mice dying from consumable use for the sole purpose of messing up shaman builds / shaman saves is different, because that outcome was made by the decisions of others.

Shadowtrophy a dit :

A shaman that chooses to troll makes his/her own decision to ruin the round for everyone, while a person using a consumable to ruin the round makes that same decision for the shaman

Shadowtrophy a dit :

It does become impossible for some maps to be completed with a shaman that is able to build when certain consumables are used. Take @192155 as an example that Jealy said. Say a said mouse places beach balls to block the cheese from all angles. Could an easy-mode shaman without skills be able to take out those throwables and save the mice at the same time? Maybe with portals in this map. But there's no portals. Balloons with boxes? Maybe, but that would cause the shaman to either 1.) slide off before spawning the items needed, or 2.) not have enough time to save the mice trapped/waiting to get to the cheese from the outside. It's a lose-lose for the shaman.

Shadowtrophy a dit :

The topic here only concerns the shaman getting saves, which doesn't take into consideration a certain person unfairly getting a first on a map.

Brownnose a dit :

I understand your reasoning, but here is mine. A lot of the time mice will use consumables to help shamans get saves.

Anythin a dit :

So you're still insinuating that a mouse that didn't get first because of a decision of others (the shaman who trolled) is not the same as a shaman losing saves because of consumables? Okay then

Anythin a dit :

The things you bring up here aren't theory anymore. That's practice but frankly I can't remember of anyone ever blocking the cheese on this map, despite it's being played quite often.

Anythin a dit :

You can say it's a different topic, but it's really not. These things are intertwined. A shaman cannot get saves without one person getting first. What's being said is that it's okay for a shaman to troll because it's his saves and he can decide what happens with them, but in no way are other people allowed to influence what happens on a map, because then all hell breaks loose. That's really selfish and narrow-minded thinking and if that's the case here then I am even more opposed to this suggestion than before.