Agree
+1~

/half support. Get rid of restorative, keep big plank.
Restorative makes the lack of c/b nails pointless. But big plank isn't much worse than the other skills we're allowed in divine mode, and it's nice to have different types/lengths of the basic building items like planks.

If you don't like those skills you can play divine mode without it. Restorative and Big planks were my segway into divine mode, and im pretty sure im not the only one. Removing said tool from divine mode would make even more people give up on it, and not much people would wanna start to use it. It Is not the only issue, many people that start with divine mode that I have met had many problems with Divine Modes only tool, which are the Free Anchors. Removing there, not only spikes it up to an level which is not even needed, but also Feels like a giant finger to everyone. Its already the hardest mode in the game, it does not really need to be unfairly hard in difficulty.

/No support

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jazzzyjazzz a dit :

/no support
look at it this way, divine is easy. you can EVEN EASIER by using the big plank. It's a good thing. I wish they got rid of the S plank it's useless.

Not completly useless, it is just very situational.

/NO SUPPORT
look at it this way, divine is easy. you can EVEN EASIER by using the big plank. It's a good thing. I wish they got rid of the S plank it's useless.

Darclient a dit :

snip

The admins said themselves that divine mode is supposed to be the ultimate challenge. If you cannot understand how to build using v anchors then perhaps instead of using the cheap method this thread targets, you could learn to actually use it. When maps are submitted for shaman categories, the maps are reviewed without skills in mind because skills are not necessary to build in this mode.

jazzzyjazzz a dit :

/NO SUPPORT
look at it this way, divine is easy. you can EVEN EASIER by using the big plank. It's a good thing. I wish they got rid of the S plank it's useless.

Tomdizzy a dit :

The admins said themselves that divine mode is supposed to be the ultimate challenge.

Removing the challenge in what is supposed to be highly challenging is contradictory, and very boring.

jazzzyjazzz a dit :

/NO SUPPORT
look at it this way, divine is easy. you can EVEN EASIER by using the big plank. It's a good thing. I wish they got rid of the S plank it's useless.

while we're at it lets just remove all planks from divine mode and only allow springs+balloons xD xD

Auroraclears a dit :

jazzzyjazzz a dit :VoirMasquer

/NO SUPPORT
look at it this way, divine is easy. you can EVEN EASIER by using the big plank. It's a good thing. I wish they got rid of the S plank it's useless.

while we're at it lets just remove all planks from divine mode and only allow springs+balloons xD xD

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Tomdizzy a dit :

The admins said themselves that divine mode is supposed to be the ultimate challenge. If you cannot understand how to build using v anchors then perhaps instead of using the cheap method this thread targets, you could learn to actually use it. When maps are submitted for shaman categories, the maps are reviewed without skills in mind because skills are not necessary to build in this mode.

Its certainly already hard enough, guess why there are not many divine mode shams to begin with. Explain this then: if its so easy, how come so many give up despite the already given tools? A easy mode would not have soo many people give up on it before they do get anywhere. Whenever its the ultimate challenge or not, The new changes you guys are so set on getting in would only decrease the ratio shamans actually get to use divine mode, and increase useless gambling and excuse making everywhere.

Besides, there will always be cheap strats like shown, there is no way for making it the "ultimate challenge" without making it to hard for everyone. If you yourself are so set on having it be a challenge, then go ahead use no skills on it. I for myself am a casual player, and I do not wish to have to relearn an entire mode because of the demand of a few.


not hard enough,remove everything except for anvils.

Just to throw this out there, people who don't bother to learn the physics and building aspect of divine first are the ones who spam balloons and give up easily. I found for myself a long time ago that learning how to build on divine in private rooms has really improved my building overall.

The debate on whether it is easy or not is up to the person using divine in the situation so there is no right or wrong answer about that. Sure it is supposed to be the ultimate challenge and sure it could be that kind of challenge to some, whereas it is too easy for others.. I personally find divine mode smooth because I know how to use it but I still have some maps where I just totally bomb it.

Back onto the topic itself, I agree with what I said on page 6. Divine should be a challenge and people using these skills are cheating their way through and not actually experiencing how fun it can be to build on divine.

Darclient a dit :

guess why there are not many divine mode shams to begin with.

This statement is completely backwards; there is an overabundance of divine shams compared to other modes.

Darclient a dit :

Besides, there will always be cheap strats like shown, there is no way for making it the "ultimate challenge" without making it to hard for everyone

It is good practice to recognize and report these cheap strategies to keep the game balanced. Divine mode is supposed to be hard.

natrats a dit :

Divine should be a challenge and people using these skills are cheating their way through and not actually experiencing how fun it can be to build on divine.

Exactly. If you cannot build with rotating anchors, perhaps hardmode is more your cup of tea.

Tomdizzy a dit :

This statement is completely backwards; there is an overabundance of divine shams compared to other modes.

okay,fair enough I do not know in which rooms you play, but I for myself am an vanilla player, and I don't see the described "overbundance of divine shams" anywhere. For a matter of fact, the ones that usually are able to farm divine mode saves are by now familiar faces. Not that many.

Tomdizzy a dit :

It is good practice to recognize and report these cheap strategies to keep the game balanced. Divine mode is supposed to be hard.

"To keep the game balanced" Excuse me? When has it been balanced in the first place? Sure, Divine is supposed to be hard but, but just because it is not hard for you and some other people in this thread, it does not mean its difficulty needs to be increased for everyone.

Natrats a dit :

Just to throw this out there, people who don't bother to learn the physics and building aspect of divine first are the ones who spam balloons and give up easily. I found for myself a long time ago that learning how to build on divine in private rooms has really improved my building overall.

The people who spam balloons are usually the ones who gave up. Having "Learn the transformice-physic system" on a list for being good at a mode is just overkill, and when its supposed to be the "ulimate challenge" don't you think it would look completly different? For an ulimate challenge that allows to use skills in the first place, its not a good one at that.

Darclient a dit :

but I for myself am an vanilla player, and I don't see the described "overbundance of divine shams"

I am also a vanilla player, and most sham turns are solved with arrow and tape spam

Darclient a dit :

When has it been balanced in the first place?

The game was fairly balanced before the 4th and 5th trees were released; Cloud was disabled in divine mode and springs got limited to 1. Now we must work on these next two trees. Well phys tree anyway, the wildling tree is quite fine as is although some skills could use buffs

Darclient a dit :

The people who spam balloons are usually the ones who gave up.

I don't think it's so much that they gave up, it's that they have yet to learn how to build. And they probably won't ever learn once they gain these two OP skills. That's how everyone in every mode started out, extremely confused and not sure what to do. But then as time went on they saw how other shamans built and learned from them. The problem is now, that 95% of successful divine mode shamans are incapable of true V building. Other mice see that the successful divine shamans use big plank and duct tape, and so they go on to do it too. What these two skills bring is a never ending cycle of never learning how the mode is intended to be played. In a mode where you are supposed to build with rotating anchors, having something that stops the rotation of anchors is quite contradictory (so is having infinite planks the size of a hardmode totem, to be honest I would like to see big plank removed from the game entirely). This applies to arrows as well, but one step at a time I suppose.

Darclient a dit :

For an ulimate challenge that allows to use skills in the first place

Removing all skills isn't exactly something i'd be opposed to, but it's not exactly necessary either. As long as the most powerful skills are removed (ie the ones in this thread) then the challenge remains about the same.

/no support

It's all very well and nice saying how easy divine can be, using a large number of the vanilla/shaman rotation maps to back up your argument, but you haven't really taken into the account that normal room players also have to deal with a lot of P0/P1 maps, art maps, mechanism maps etc. which can sometimes be an absolute nightmare to shaman on divine, even with the additional skills.

Tomdizzy a dit :

I don't think it's so much that they gave up, it's that they have yet to learn how to build. And they probably won't ever learn once they gain these two OP skills.

I was speaking of experience when I said it. I must have never met you in vanilla, but usually I see divine mode shamans(new ones) that try to build without duck tape and big plank, try thrice,fail thrice and then give up to spam balloons.

Tomdizzy a dit :

What these two skills bring is a never ending cycle of never learning how the mode is intended to be played.

Fair enough. However keep in mind that things usually never go as intented, even less in video games.
(walljump) but it did not stop it from becoming important now does it? I personally thing that the shamans should be given the option to use them and not have it forced down the throat to not be able to. Granted, cloud is not there for reasons you already said, but just take what Welshnutter said for an example. build a build without any duck tapes and or big planks on a map were the map changes itself fairly often.

Tomdizzy a dit :

to be honest I would like to see big plank removed from the game entirely

Ok, thats your opinion. I like the Big planks alot, (even through I only use them within hardmode and divine mode).

Tomdizzy a dit :

Other mice see that the successful divine shamans use big plank and duct tape, and so they go on to do it too.

Same applies to other modes aswell, there is alot of professional hardmode shamans, and its easier of an mode too. You'd think that people tend to go for something that is not so hard, which is what I end up seeing the most of. You might be in a room like vanila1 and again granted, there are good divine mode shamans(same with other popular rooms) but there are not as many in other rooms. I look out for them ever since this thread, and I have only found a handfull of them.

you realize the point of divine mode isnt to be a flawless shaman who gets 20 saves per turn without putting in any effort

The point that is missing in this thread is that if you're going to make the game more difficult people will stop trying and eventually leave the game because they're stuck at a point which seems impossible to overcome. They're not going to take their time to learn how to build, in this era people want instant rewards. If they don't get that, they'll easily replace Transformice with some other game. In that sense it's much more profitable for the admins to keep the game relatively easy.

In the current situation people from all skill levels are able to use divine mode in whatever way they want. It's been said in this thread before, if you want to use big planks and restorative, why not? If you don't want to use them, then don't? You don't lose anything by not using these skills and everyone can be happy. Saying divine mode should be a challenge by nature is pretty trivial considering that what is a challenge to one can be super easy to another. That doesn't mean one player should be limited because the other player thinks the mode is too easy. Because it is in fact a choice how difficult you want to make things for yourself. And I believe this choice should remain, therefore I do not support this suggestion.

changing my answer again
/nosupport
you can just play without it
you probably shouldn't play the map if shamans use it if you hate it that much

Anythin a dit :

If you want to use big planks and restorative, why not? If you don't want to use them, then don't? You don't lose anything by not using these skills and everyone can be happy. Saying divine mode should be a challenge by nature is pretty trivial considering that what is a challenge to one can be super easy to another. That doesn't mean one player should be limited because the other player thinks the mode is too easy. Because it is in fact a choice how difficult you want to make things for yourself. And I believe this choice should remain, therefore I do not support this suggestion.

This is exactly what I mean. If you don't find divine mode challenging as it is, then you can go out your way to find some more interesting builds to satisfy your inner challenging self. As said, if you don't like using some skills, don't use them, it is as simple as that. But you can't stop other people from using it just because you are not in favor.

For example, most people hate the clean mouse skill (bubbles), including myself. They can complain and whine all day, but what can you do about it? Nothing. It is the choice of people who choose to use the skill. You can't report this to the admins and tell them to eliminate the bubble skill so you can be happier. Things don't work this way.

/half support
although some shamans use it in a 'nooby' way, it's more cheese for you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
/support
You start out with normal mode, being able to use any skill and nail.
Then you use what you know and move on to hard mode, not being able to use red nails thus making it a little more challenging.
Then it's divine mode, where there's no yellow or red nails, totem, or cloud - but yet restorative, large planks, and a much larger spawning range?
It might as well be a slightly harder/easier alternative to hard mode. I feel that divine mode is named that for a reason, it's supposed to be different and harder and used by the "divine"(who are more skilled i suppose?).
So yes, divine mode is supposed to be harder, not easier. these are just my opinions on this matter, agree if you want