Anythin a dit :

The point that is missing in this thread is that if you're going to make the game more difficult people will stop trying and eventually leave the game because they're stuck at a point which seems impossible to overcome. They're not going to take their time to learn how to build, in this era people want instant rewards. If they don't get that, they'll easily replace Transformice with some other game. In that sense it's much more profitable for the admins to keep the game relatively easy.

In the current situation people from all skill levels are able to use divine mode in whatever way they want. It's been said in this thread before, if you want to use big planks and restorative, why not? If you don't want to use them, then don't? You don't lose anything by not using these skills and everyone can be happy. Saying divine mode should be a challenge by nature is pretty trivial considering that what is a challenge to one can be super easy to another. That doesn't mean one player should be limited because the other player thinks the mode is too easy. Because it is in fact a choice how difficult you want to make things for yourself. And I believe this choice should remain, therefore I do not support this suggestion.

You are a wizard for finding the perfect words for the perfect timing

Welshnutter a dit :

normal room players also have to deal with a lot of P0/P1 maps, art maps, mechanism maps etc. which can sometimes be an absolute nightmare to shaman on divine, even with the additional skills.

Most of the time, these maps being nightmares is a result of not knowing how to actually build. I understand there are a few exceptions; One time I got a p0 map where not a single ground collided with shaman objects. Sometimes p0 maps are an instant loss for the shaman regardless of what mode you're in.

Darclient a dit :

Granted, cloud is not there for reasons you already said,

Yes, and restoritive and big planks creates 5 giant clouds. Might as well allow cloud in divine mode again.

Anythin a dit :

The point that is missing in this thread is that if you're going to make the game more difficult people will stop trying and eventually leave the game because they're stuck at a point which seems impossible to overcome.

I think it is more likely that they would move back to hard mode if the new theoretical divine mode was too hard. With these skills they are still building in hardmode anyway, what's the difference? The difference is that divine mode would no longer be a "hardmode+",

Anythin a dit :

In the current situation people from all skill levels are able to use divine mode in whatever way they want.

Did this mean nothing?

Anythin a dit :

That doesn't mean one player should be limited because the other player thinks the mode is too easy.

If making 400 pixel planks with fixed rotation isn't easy for a shaman who unlocked a v building mode, that speaks for itself how many problems divine mode has in its current state.

Angelfromaj a dit :

you can just play without it

Chocojell a dit :

then you can go out your way to find some more interesting builds to satisfy your inner challenging self.

Anythin a dit :

If you don't want to use them, then don't?

I do not want these skills removed because I want divine mode more challenging for me. I want these skills removed so that people actually build in divine mode. As it is, almost any map can be completed using only a handful of big planks with duct tape on them all. Two skills have more power than all 5 trees in transformice combined, do you not see this as a problem? Take a look at the first post in this thread again. Is there any difference if those green nails were yellow? Duct tape and big plank allow people to build hardmode style in divine mode. That is why I and others would like to see them removed. It's not about us, it's about the aspect of building as a whole being lost because of two skills.

I played a couple random p1 / p0 / p5 / p6 maps. It is not nearly as difficulty as you make it out to be.






The plank in the lower right stops rotation of the mechanism without skills




p1 has better shaman maps than p4, this one actually made me think a bit.




I am a pure vanilla player, and I was able to solve these maps first try. It's because I actually build and get better at building, instead of using the same 2 skills to instantly complete every map. When hardmode was first released people were not instantly able to build it either. But we learned over time, by watching each other build and making up some of our own ideas. The same could be true with divine if it were fixed.

Tomdizzy a dit :

I am a pure vanilla player, and I was able to solve these maps first try. It's because I actually build and get better at building, instead of using the same 2 skills to instantly complete every map. When hardmode was first released people were not instantly able to build it either. But we learned over time, by watching each other build and making up some of our own ideas. The same could be true with divine if it were fixed.

Never had the idea that you might be able to beat them faster because you are 1. a long time player 2. already used to it 3. Already have lots of experience with divine mode?

i'm probably going to get yelled at for this but:
you aren't their parents. they can build however they want.

Darclient a dit :

Tomdizzy a dit :VoirMasquer

I am a pure vanilla player, and I was able to solve these maps first try. It's because I actually build and get better at building, instead of using the same 2 skills to instantly complete every map. When hardmode was first released people were not instantly able to build it either. But we learned over time, by watching each other build and making up some of our own ideas. The same could be true with divine if it were fixed.

Never had the idea that you might be able to beat them faster because you are 1. a long time player 2. already used to it 3. Already have lots of experience with divine mode?

Yes, I have experience because I actually build without these skills. My traditional V building prior to divine mode was nothing like what I build now; The range changes things entirely.

angelfromaj a dit :

i'm probably going to get yelled at for this but:
you aren't their parents. they can build however they want.

If there is an abusable glitch in the game, would you say the same? Or would you report it?

Now this is not an abusable glitch, but two broken skills also need to be reported and balanced just the same. They both give an extreme advantage to the players who have them and are overpowered. I simply don't want to stand idly by while divine mode continues to be a giant mockery of v building.


e: I would like everyone to revisit the op and take note of the skill tree I shammed these maps with.

Tomdizzy a dit :

I think it is more likely that they would move back to hard mode if the new theoretical divine mode was too hard. With these skills they are still building in hardmode anyway, what's the difference? The difference is that divine mode would no longer be a "hardmode+",

The admins cannot afford to take that risk financially. There's no guarantee that people will just stick to hard mode when divine mode gets harder. And once people are gone, they're not coming back.

Tomdizzy a dit :

Did this mean nothing?

If you've been playing for 6 years by now you should know that whatever the admins have said in the past is not set in stone. They always said there would be no cats or pets on Transformice either, but look at the pet consumables and the shaman skill to turn yourself into a cat. So yes, that message means nothing.

Tomdizzy a dit :

It's not about us, it's about the aspect of building as a whole being lost because of two skills.
[...]
Now this is not an abusable glitch, but two broken skills also need to be reported and balanced just the same.

Using a glitch or using skills are two entirely different things. Where a glitch is an unintended feature, the skills were added intentially to make shamaning easier. You can't demand people to not use skills because they do exactly what they're designed for. Whether they are overpowered or not is also a matter of perception, I see plenty of people who fail while trying to use these skills. Truly, if people really want to build the way you want them to build, they should be able to do so by choice. I don't like that you want to force this way of building on them, because in the end we're all here to have fun while playing the game.

Anythin a dit :

snip

I don't think you have revisited the op. There are 75 skills in transformice, and with two skills alone I was able to shaman some of the most difficult maps extremely efficiently and effectively. If someone cannot do this on a similar level then that goes back to my divine mode requirements thread because this is really only watered-down hardmode building. I would go as far to say that these skills are not only op in divine, but in all modes. Because something that removes the need to do what shaman is about is just plain silly (of course this applies only to big plank for easy mode).

Anythin a dit :

this way of building

You mean building in the first place.

I think people would have much more fun actually thinking and sharing ideas with each other than slapping 400 pixel b planks everywhere in what is supposed to be a v building mode.

It's not a matter of can or can't build, it's a matter of people being able to build however they want, with the utilities they choose rather than what you want to make them choose. If people enjoy the way they are building then nobody can tell them they shouldn't build that way. You don't have to like how people build, but you certainly can't tell them what they think is more fun. Let people decide on their own, by leaving all options open.

Anythin a dit :

It's not a matter of can or can't build, it's a matter of people being able to build however they want, with the utilities they choose rather than what you want to make them choose. If people enjoy the way they are building then nobody can tell them they shouldn't build that way. You don't have to like how people build, but you certainly can't tell them what they think is more fun. Let people decide on their own, by leaving all options open.

By this logic, B nails should be allowed in all modes, and the players should decide whether to use them or not.

Anythin a dit :

The point that is missing in this thread is that if you're going to make the game more difficult people will stop trying and eventually leave the game because they're stuck at a point which seems impossible to overcome. They're not going to take their time to learn how to build, in this era people want instant rewards. If they don't get that, they'll easily replace Transformice with some other game. In that sense it's much more profitable for the admins to keep the game relatively easy.

thats
what
the other
two
modes
are
for

Tomdizzy a dit :

By this logic, B nails should be allowed in all modes, and the players should decide whether to use them or not.

By leaving all options open I meant all options within the current situation. Why change something that isn't broken? People are having fun, why should you restrict them and risk losing that? Nobody gains anything with this suggestion, people can only lose something.

Auroraclears a dit :

thats what the other two modes are for

Can you be more clear about what you're referring to? Your post makes no sense to me.

@anythin about this not being an abusable glitch because the quote broke
couldn't have said it better myself

Humans are opportunistic, tactile, and social creatures.
We naturally take the easiest path with the greatest reward for least risk.
Big planks + Restorative = Easiest path.
Big Planks + Restorative = Stable path that saves mice without fear of mice dying.
There you have it, humans have a choice naturally but humans would always continue to follow what is trending.
I say to remove Big Planks and Restorative and if you want to use those two skills, you are free to use the other modes.

Anythin a dit :

Can you be more clear about what you're referring to? Your post makes no sense to me.

let me rephrase then
if someone enjoyed the game long enough to unlock divine mode, chances are they wont ragequit and never return all because its too hard for them, instead of say, enjoying everything else the game has to offer (like normal and hard mode for example) and just maybe practicing divine mode a bit more to get better

Anythin a dit :

Using a glitch or using skills are two entirely different things.

lets say the admins suddenly decided to allow flyhacks everywhere because its "easier" and allows others (ie brazilian statpadders) to "have fun in their own way"
would you support this change or would you prefer it revert back to what it was

Anythin a dit :

Why change something that isn't broken?

Video

This is broken.

Auroraclears a dit :

lets say the admins suddenly decided to allow flyhacks everywhere because its "easier" and allows others (ie brazilian statpadders) to "have fun in their own way"
would you support this change or would you prefer it revert back to what it was

I don't understand how you can compare two things that are completely different. We are not talking about something that violates the rules of Transformice (fly hack). Your argument is irrelevant to this topic because the skills (big plank and restorative) are not against the rules, they are simply the player's choice whether to use them or not. You won't get banned for using those skills to build. On the other hand, fly hacks can be reported and the user would be banned.

What you said makes no sense whatsoever because glitches and skills are not comparable.

Chocojell a dit :

Auroraclears a dit :VoirMasquer

lets say the admins suddenly decided to allow flyhacks everywhere because its "easier" and allows others (ie brazilian statpadders) to "have fun in their own way"
would you support this change or would you prefer it revert back to what it was

I don't understand how you can compare two things that are completely different. We are not talking about something that violates the rules of Transformice (fly hack). Your argument is irrelevant to this topic because the skills (big plank and restorative) are not against the rules, they are simply the player's choice whether to use them or not. You won't get banned for using those skills to build. On the other hand, fly hacks can be reported and the user would be banned.

What you said makes no sense whatsoever because glitches and skills are not comparable.

The point being made is that while they are both enjoyable and advantageous, at the same time they're also extremely broken and unbalanced.

easy things are broken and unbalanced
okay

angelfromaj a dit :

easy things are broken and unbalanced
okay

Easy belongs in easy mode, this is divine mode.

e: made one more example video.

things that make things not as you want are broken and unbalanced