Deny it all you want. Long planks and tape clearly are broken and unbalanced in divine mode. You would know this if, you know, you actually played in divine mode yourself.
Edit: Gonna further expand what I mean here: If you do not use divine mode yourself, you should not be on this thread dictating what should be happening to divine mode. It doesn't affect you at all, so you shouldn't be bothered so much by it. I realize the same thing could be said about us, but this thread and this suggestion would definitely better the game in the long run.
Learning how to build was a struggle when everyone was a shaman for the first time, being forced to actually try to build without long planks and restorative in divine couldn't possibly be that hard if it were to be changed.

Auroraclears a dit :

let me rephrase then
if someone enjoyed the game long enough to unlock divine mode, chances are they wont ragequit and never return all because its too hard for them, instead of say, enjoying everything else the game has to offer (like normal and hard mode for example) and just maybe practicing divine mode a bit more to get better

But that doesn't apply to the current playerbase, who is used to using divine mode and then suddenly gets thrown back because skills they frequently used become unavailable. Like I said before, there's no guarantee that these people will stay and the company is not in the position to take a risk like that right now. They're trying their best to keep people playing and attract new players, the last thing they need is updates that affect people's gameplay in a negative way so significantly.

Tomdizzy a dit :

video's

Just because something doesn't meet your expectations, that doesn't mean it's broken or unintended to be like that. I see nothing wrong with your video's, you're using the things the way they are intended to be used. I can guarantee you that not every divine shaman is able to build in such manner with that speed, like in your video. But believe what you want.

Vedae a dit :

Deny it all you want. Long planks and tape clearly are broken and unbalanced in divine mode. You would know this if, you know, you actually played in divine mode yourself.
Edit: Gonna further expand what I mean here: If you do not use divine mode yourself, you should not be on this thread dictating what should be happening to divine mode. It doesn't affect you at all, so you shouldn't be bothered so much by it. I realize the same thing could be said about us, but this thread and this suggestion would definitely better the game in the long run.
Learning how to build was a struggle when everyone was a shaman for the first time, being forced to actually try to build without long planks and restorative in divine couldn't possibly be that hard if it were to be changed.

You already realised you're just contradicting yourself here. If you're not even using these shaman skills yourself, you have just as much legitimacy to discuss things in this thread as anyone who doesn't play in divine mode. So please don't tell people they can't voice their opinion here when you're in the same boat as them. You're not entitled to having an opinion on this matter more than anyone else.

Anythin a dit :

snip

that building was not even fast, i had neither reflex/master summoner nor acrobat and the need for accuracy with that tape can even be removed with arrow anchors. if someone who is in divine mode cannot replicate what i did, they do not belong in divine mode. in fact i actually took this building style from a random divine shaman in a vanilla room. if you see no problem with that map being solved with 5 planks and being as strong as if it had 5 b nails in it, i don't know what more to say. These skills make divine mode easier than hardmode and almost as easy as easy mode, and anyone that cannot see a problem with that clearly does not care about the shaman aspect of the game.

bringing up Atelier's finances is irrelevant, this is a discussion of gameplay not marketing.

Tomdizzy a dit :

that building was not even fast, i had neither reflex/master summoner nor acrobat and the need for accuracy with that tape can even be removed with arrow anchors. if someone who is in divine mode cannot replicate what i did, they do not belong in divine mode. in fact i actually took this building style from a random divine shaman in a vanilla room. if you see no problem with that map being solved with 5 planks and being as strong as if it had 5 b nails in it, i don't know what more to say. These skills make divine mode easier than hardmode and almost as easy as easy mode, and anyone that cannot see a problem with that clearly does not care about the shaman aspect of the game.

Nowhere does it say you actually need any skill to be able to play in divine mode. All you need is to have 5000 easy mode saves and 2000 hard mode saves, which can be gained through maps that don't require any building at all. With that in mind, these shaman skills actually help the game stay balanced in a way that the leap from hard mode to divine mode isn't a mountain to climb. As such, removing these shaman skills would in fact make the game more unbalanced instead of more balanced. The problem you have has nothing to do with shaman skills, but with divine mode not meeting your expectations. For that, perhaps Primeside's suggestion which has been posted a few pages ago is suits you more:

Primeside a dit :

Honestly at this point, I'd rather see a new shaman mode altogether that disables most skills. [...]

Anythin a dit :

snip

A steady increase in difficulty achieves balance. Hardmode is a strong step up from easy mode soley because you will not have the level to aquire restoritive. However once you reach divine and get restoritive, it is hardmode again. relatively speaking, 1:2:2 is not a balanced difficulty ratio between the 3 modes. With prime's suggestion hardmode becomes even more obsolete than it already is. This would make the difficulty ratio of the modes 1:2:2:3. This would call for the removal of either hard or divine mode; all absurdity just to allow divine mode to exist in its unbalanced state.

the only thing missing from tom's vids is actual mice rushing, which could alter how effective the big plank and restorative are to a build with the time constraints. but nevertheless, big plank and restorative are still op. with those two skills, a shaman doesn't truly know the difficulty of divine mode. if putting 5 big planks with restoratives is the new definition of divine mode, woe is me.

Tomdizzy a dit :

A steady increase in difficulty achieves balance. Hardmode is a strong step up from easy mode soley because you will not have the level to aquire restoritive. However once you reach divine and get restoritive, it is hardmode again. relatively speaking, 1:2:2 is not a balanced difficulty ratio between the 3 modes. With prime's suggestion hardmode becomes even more obsolete than it already is. This would make the difficulty ratio of the modes 1:2:2:3.

The actual representation of difficulty would actually be 1:1:1 or 1:1:2 as you literally do not have to build at all to be able to reach hard mode or divine mode. It's only a matter of time and a matter of playing in normal rooms long enough (while getting the right maps as shaman) before you unlock these modes. The only real difficulty here is finding enough time to play the game. Therefore if this suggestion gets implemented the difficulty would go to 1:1:4 which is obviously a lot more unbalanced than what it is now. Like I said before, shaman skills are not the problem here but your expectations of what divine mode should be.

Anythin a dit :

Tomdizzy a dit :VoirMasquer

A steady increase in difficulty achieves balance. Hardmode is a strong step up from easy mode soley because you will not have the level to aquire restoritive. However once you reach divine and get restoritive, it is hardmode again. relatively speaking, 1:2:2 is not a balanced difficulty ratio between the 3 modes. With prime's suggestion hardmode becomes even more obsolete than it already is. This would make the difficulty ratio of the modes 1:2:2:3.

The actual representation of difficulty would actually be 1:1:1 or 1:1:2 as you literally do not have to build at all to be able to reach hard mode or divine mode. It's only a matter of time and a matter of playing in normal rooms long enough (while getting the right maps as shaman) before you unlock these modes. The only real difficulty here is finding enough time to play the game. Therefore if this suggestion gets implemented the difficulty would go to 1:1:4 which is obviously a lot more unbalanced than what it is now. Like I said before, shaman skills are not the problem here but your expectations of what divine mode should be.

This implies that reaching a mode 'completes' the previous one and that hardmode is 'completed' quickly; also going back to my divine mode requirements thread. I don't think its fair to call easy mode and hard mode the same 'difficulty' because easy lasts 1k and hardmode lasts 2-3k saves. These are not levels in a sonic game, they are different functioning modes. I find it strange having this conversation with someone who has played as long as me

At this point I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. It doesn't seem like you understand what I wrote.

Anythin a dit :

At this point I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. It doesn't seem like you understand what I wrote.

perhaps you were meaning that shamans can get free saves with the right map? is that not possible in divine aswell?

w w wait. Anythin you have no saves in divine mode???
imagine someone who has never completed a single bootcamp arguing something on a bootcamp-related discussion thread. what do you know about divine mode? or do you have another account for playing divine mode??

Anything a dit :

In the current situation people from all skill levels are able to use divine mode in whatever way they want. It's been said in this thread before, if you want to use big planks and restorative, why not? If you don't want to use them, then don't? You don't lose anything by not using these skills and everyone can be happy. Saying divine mode should be a challenge by nature is pretty trivial considering that what is a challenge to one can be super easy to another. That doesn't mean one player should be limited because the other player thinks the mode is too easy. Because it is in fact a choice how difficult you want to make things for yourself. And I believe this choice should remain

Darclient a dit :

You are a wizard for finding the perfect words for the perfect timing

firstly, easiness which restorative and big planks bring to divine mode is not something that can be measured relatively only by people's subjective feelings but, as I said before, it's a drastic and absolute easiness which can be explained theoretically and objectively.

people should not be allowed to choose a drastically easy ways in divine mode because it has stats. As you may know, divine mode saves are counted separately from the other two modes. in other words, divine mode is a target for pursuing numerical experience to get prestige. the same as firsts, rounds of racing, rounds of survivor and bootcamp completes. there shouldn't be shortcuts or drastically easy ways to farm. they all should be kept fun and, at the same time, hard enough to protect their prestige.
what if firsts count in a room with 2 mice? what if bootcamp had 2 types of rooms:"easy"-easier maps only and "hard"-harder maps only, and people could choose whichever they like? would more people welcome it and come to play?

i remember that one feather coin vs saves is 6:1 for easy mode, 5:1 for hard mode, 4:1 for divine mode. divine mode should be challenging to deserve that rate and prestige.
if i were admin, i would rather make an official divine mode shaman guide to let people feel it easier than add shortcut items declining absolute difficulty of divine mode.

I feel the need to point some things out.

1. I just went on TFM and tested it, and the Big Plank isn't as big as people think. I placed down a Big plank, and a normal plank on top of it towards the side. Then, I placed a small plank beside the Normal plank (not attaching the two). So the Big Plank isn't as big as people think it is. Only one normal plank and one small one.

2. I guess I can agree, Restorative can be a little OP depending on the Map and the Mode. But think about it, you only have 10 Extra arrows to use to try to help keep planks stable. Of course there are boxes to help, but not many players know how to use the boxes properly and often don't learn how to until later on.
Plus, people like to consider the Restorative to be extra "B Planks" yet this is not true. The Restorative is there to keep the planks from tilting. But that doesn't mean (if it doesn't have any anvils to keep it from moving and/or bolted to another plank) it doesn't move left to right. I should know this, considering I used to use Restorative, Big Plank, and other abilities to create fun simple boats.

Also, Tomdizzy, I feel like I should tell you that you don't need to try to get everyone to fully agree with you. The majority of this topic just seems like you and another person (Anythin, and more) disagreeing back and forth. It might just be easier if you let go and allow people to disagree on your idea. Its normal for someone to disagree with someone's idea.

Although, I will however, change my support from 1 Third to Half-Support.
I just don't think both powers should be removed. I believe it should be one or the other.

Sabzra a dit :

snip

The thing about big plank is that it lowers the amount of building needed drastically. This allows conservation of arrow anchors (which i dont even use) and also makes builds require less structural support since there will be less planks to hold up.

Yes it is true that restoritive is not exactly a b plank, however when i can stack 1000 anvils on something and have it not budge, i will refer to it as such.

I know i cannot make everyone agree with me, im simply having discussions with those on my thread.

Tomdizzy a dit :

perhaps you were meaning that shamans can get free saves with the right map? is that not possible in divine aswell?

Exactly. With the amount of maps in rotation that gives shamans little to nothing to do, it's hard to say that there's a significant difference in difficulty between normal mode, hard mode and even divine mode. Even when it does come to the point a shaman needs to build, the hard mode shaman has a b nail available through it's totem which makes building a piece of cake and barely different than normal mode. In divine mode, the shaman has the availability of shaman skills like the ones discussed in this thread, to compensate the loss of the totem. If these shaman skills are removed, there is no compensation for the totem and thus it makes building a lot more harder. The balance will be gone.

Gekkeiju a dit :

w w wait. Anythin you have no saves in divine mode???
imagine someone who has never completed a single bootcamp arguing something on a bootcamp-related discussion thread. what do you know about divine mode? or do you have another account for playing divine mode??

I'd appreciate it if you discussed with me based on the things I say, not based on what my stats are. Having divine mode saves does in no way mean you know what you're talking about (reason explained above), just like having no divine mode saves doesn't mean I don't know what I am talking about.

Gekkeiju a dit :

people should not be allowed to choose a drastically easy ways in divine mode because it has stats. As you may know, divine mode saves are counted separately from the other two modes. in other words, divine mode is a target for pursuing numerical experience to get prestige. the same as firsts, rounds of racing, rounds of survivor and bootcamp completes. there shouldn't be shortcuts or drastically easy ways to farm. they all should be kept fun and, at the same time, hard enough to protect their prestige.
what if firsts count in a room with 2 mice? what if bootcamp had 2 types of rooms:"easy"-easier maps only and "hard"-harder maps only, and people could choose whichever they like? would more people welcome it and come to play?

There is no prestige when playing p0, p1, vanilla, art or mechanism maps that require no building at all (pretty much half of the rotation). With or without these shaman skills. So your whole story is pointless. I guess if you want a real challenge, modules like divinity are the place to go.

the compensation is the large range, not shaman skills.

Tomdizzy a dit :

Sabzra a dit :VoirMasquer

snip

The thing about big plank is that it lowers the amount of building needed drastically. This allows conservation of arrow anchors (which i dont even use) and also makes builds require less structural support since there will be less planks to hold up.

Yes it is true that restoritive is not exactly a b plank, however when i can stack 1000 anvils on something and have it not budge, i will refer to it as such.

I know i cannot make everyone agree with me, im simply having discussions with those on my thread.

Well, I can see your point about Restorative. But, instead of removing it, I think TFM should make it so that a plank does tilt with it, just not as easy as a plank without Restorative, thus making it less OP.

I see how the Big Plank lowers the amount of building, but isn't that what Big Plank is for? To make building quicker? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe instead of removing things, they should just adjust them. Maybe Big Plank should be smaller than what it is now, but slightly larger than a normal plank.
Although, I would prefer (and I'm sure others would as well) if only one was removed if not adjusted.

Beep beep. Hello, I supported this already.

I can understand both sides, but everything is just repeating at this point.

Why not just have the usage of these skills reduced like how other skills are? I feel that's a good medium and forces Divine shamans to work a lil harder.
Although if this were to happen, then I feel Hard mode would need a little revamp, such as, removing red nails from the totem and then Hard mode shamans will take more advantage of Big Plank and Restorative.

Not sure if my reasoning makes sense, but I wanted to throw that out there.

Tomdizzy a dit :

the compensation is the large range, not shaman skills.

That doesn't change the fact that the balance will be gone once these shaman skills are removed.

Divine was made to be hard, using long planks helps with getting mice somewhere
If you wanna get rid of long planks, you got to ask to remove the other items, such as tape, because that straightens the plank as if they were using yellow nail.

/NoSupport

youcantfindm a dit :

snip

Restorative = tape.
That's the point of this thread, to get rid of both.