Public Map-Rotation Discussion |
Impuredeath « Citoyen » 1371295560000
| 0 | ||
Public Map-Rotation Discussion Introduction I have been getting a lot of people giving me feedback about the current map-rotation. This includes their problems and suggested ways to improve the rotation. That is why I created this discussion thread so you the players can discuss the current map-rotation here. Tell us what you think about the map-rotation. And if you find any flaws and things that need to be changed, please let us know. And If you don't have anything to add, you can show what you agree with and what you don't. Let people hear what you think! Rules I will set a few rules for this thread though, this is meant to solve the issue not talk about how bad or good it is. We want to come to an agreement and resolve the issues which might exist. Try to be mature and constructive. ________________________________________________________________________ Now I might aswell give you a summary of my ideas which I based on the feedback I recieved ingame. First thing I consider we need to be doing is place all the maps in every p# category that doesn't require a shaman, into p7(No-shaman maps). It might be that some mice get stuck, but they would also have been stuck with the shaman, and the chance the shaman messes up the whole map for more players is less. Kick out all those fast/chaotic moving maps that don't really work. That is quite simple to do, but we need people to agree to this ofcourse. More player directed/easier shaman maps. With this I mean have a few easier map in rotation so players can make the map fun for themselves, look at map 0 for example, people make the craziest builds just to do that map. Give some freedom of build. Maps don't have to take 2 min to complete. |
Typenick « Citoyen » 1371297000000
| 0 | ||
In my opinion map categories going up to eleven make rotation much more complicated than it needs to be. You should scrap the concept of assigning each map to a very specific category and make 2 of them instead - maps that require shaman and maps that don't (and separate category for each minigame like bootcamp or racing, of course). Not only this'd make balancing the rotation easier (it should slightly bias on shaman aspect on the game imo), it'd also make getting variety in few very big categories simpler as well. There is no real need for all those Ps since they are pretty much exactly the same, you simply put different maps in each one. |
Shamousey « Consul » 1371297120000
| 0 | ||
I think we need P43 in rotation, that'd solve everything. The Map Crew's double standards about 'old maps' doesn't hold up a lot of the time, there are several of them that come into rotation with higher perms that don't fit today's standards for rotation, it puts it all out of sync and definitely gets in the way. This is more prevailent in bootcamp though, so I guess we'll pass over that one again. As for moving all non-shaman maps into P7, does this include getting rid of P17 as a whole? I think this would be fine in *most* cases, but not all. Art maps should stay as art as that'd suit them better, and there are several shaman maps that can be soloed, but are extremely difficult to do so, these shouldn't be P7. Easier maps for shamans, that's a good point too, one that I wholeheartedly agree with, there are so many maps with not much freedom to build in, and are too tough for most shamans even if some can complete it in 20 seconds. As you said, Map 0 has tons of solutions and I think that's great, part of the appeal to shamaning on that map, for me, is the fact I can spend a minute and a half building some crazy contraption instead of a single plank. As for current racing/non-shaman maps, most are too tough for most newbies and regular members, I often see only 2-3 mice completing them in rooms with 30+ mice. I like how a lot of their gameplay is unique and they have different things to do, but most are simply not suitable for everyone. I reiterate, P43 pls. |
0 | ||
This is a great thread, I hope some ideas will be implemented in the near future. I agree with your ideas, some maps are designed to be solo'd but shamans just ruin it and usually the soloable ones are harder, meaning more deaths and unhappy shaman. If they were all to be in P7, shamans would get less frustrated, as would the public. Idk I had this idea in mind a while ago but it sounded pretty silly. Ever since the introduction of joints and shizzle, the standards for art have drastically changed and the colored ground art is getting less attention no matter how good they may be. I think this is unfair to the people who used to excel when using colored grounds because the new generation of art is basically just drawn over an overlay in viprins tool thing, I thought it would be pretty neat if there were two sub categories for P5, Standard P5, and P5II or something, one for colored grounds and one for joint art. This brings me onto my other thought. With all the problems people have with specific maps being in the wrong category in rotation, I believe that they shouldn't nesscessarily be moved. There should be sub categories for each category for example P9I - racing styled P9II - soulmate P9III - collision that way it narrows maps down so people stop complaining about maps being in the wrong category etc. I know these are pretty big thoughts and whatnot and they should go in the suggestion subforum but Im too lazy to write it up in greater detail in a whole new thread. |
Impuredeath « Citoyen » 1371297480000
| 0 | ||
Shamousey a dit : No with this I mean only maps where the shaman can't help at all. For example crowded mechanism maps where if the shaman spawns a box the whole mechanism is broken. Shamousey a dit : That is a good one, Personally I always am for high visual appealing standards. And I think a lot of maps need to be updated and fixed. So I agree with you on this one. Just like you said maybe for certain minigame rooms the standarts might be different. We should take vanilla as the map quality standards for how they should look, visually. And everything below that would not be worthy. But that is my personal idea. What do you guys think about this? Typenick a dit : I agree with you on most of these points. That requires re-coding of the system, that could happen ofcourse its good to suggest it. It might be a interesting idea to note in the suggestion if it a change for the mapcrew or if it is for the admins to change. This way it would be easier to sum up a idea to give to the admins aswell. (This is so if more people reply its easier to pick out the ones for the admins) |
Shamousey « Consul » 1371298020000
| 0 | ||
As for old maps that are out of today's standards, I'm not saying to remove them, I'm saying FIX THEM, they can still have the same appeal and just be edited, what's the problem with that? To be honest, I think the best solution to this would be locking Tigrounette in a cage for an hour and making him code something for the map editor or even an XML to either have a shaman or not, in a specific map. That way there'd be no need to sort with more perm categories whether a shaman is needed or not, it'd be up to the map maker. |
Impuredeath « Citoyen » 1371300600000
| 0 | ||
Also thought of simple question order for people to decide which map goes in which category: 1. Does the map need a shaman? No? --> P7 Yes? --> P4/P5/P6/P8/P9 (Go to step 2) 2. Is the map focused around the shaman? No? --> P5/P6/P9 (Go to step 3) Yes? --> P4/P8 (Go to step 4) 3. Does the map have: Art? --> P5 Mechanism? -->P6 Collision/Soulmate/Misc --> P9 4. Does the map need 2 shamans? No? --> P4 Yes? --> P8 I think maps should be categorised in this order. |
Roflzor « Censeur » 1371305160000
| 0 | ||
For P4: I'm a huge fan of shaman maps. Always have been! But I'm not rly happy with the currently rotation we have. Somehow, 80% of our maps are just the same type of challenge. And everytime players try to change this by sending a cage map, a nightmode map, a gravity map or smth like that it seems to be way too hard for everyone. But its always gonna be too hard, right?! Noone else ever got the chance of trying or watching shamans doing a different map than just the same type of build all the time. I wished I could see more type of maps comming from the shaman minigame room in our rotation, even if it seems to be hard for most of all. Would be rly cool to have a few small versions of them: Cage maps, timming challenging maps, nightmodes, gravity, all that. But I'd also like to see easier maps in the rotation, like you just said. This would be rly great, not only for people who are starting now, but also for experienced shamans to try different things. And also maps with less possibility of everyone killing themselves for some stupid rushing reason. For P5: I'm happy with the currently rotation, altho I wished to see for a future comming: More art and less mechanism. P5 category ISN'T an artistic mechanism category. For P6: I am not the right person to talk about them, but I think we are dealing with many sync based maps lately that should be removed. Also, there is a shaman problem for most of them. Shamans tends to ruin awesome mechanisms. And if we decide to move most of them to the P7 category, that is a no shaman category, than our rotation would become boring... we already have P6 rotation twince, PLUS P7 with mechanisms and art with mechanisms I think would be too much. Actually, I believe P6 category should rotate just once, as any other category does. For P7: Impuredeath a dit : You pretty just said everything I wanted to say. But worth to remind that b4 doing that, the symbol of P7 category should be changed asap, since it's way too confusing for everyone to understand what the category rly is, when its symbol stills a racing flag. For P8: It's pretty like P4. Except that 99% of maps are just the same ^^' There could be more competition between them. More 'gamming', like who builds faster or smth... And I think all soloable maps should be removed from the category. Its ok that its amazing to see one or two mice soloing a shaman map, but its rly sad to see everyone losing their saves everytime they try. |
Championrs 1371305940000
| | ||
[Modéré par Roflzor] |
Haruhitastic « Censeur » 1371306600000
| 0 | ||
For P5: Yes Viprin's editor is amazing, and yes so is art mech. But the maps are so laggy for a lot of people. I'll get a proper list of the really laggy ones. I'm also in the minority that older art maps should be included (the ones by Tuiii are an example). These maps are art just as much as Viprin, if not more because of the time it took to make them. ^^' Although I do see your point of holding vanilla as a standard. P.S.: @317110 is better suited for P7 ok thanks My other opinions have been stated by Roflzor lol |
Papero « Citoyen » 1371310560000
| 0 | ||
Haruhitastic a dit : i know a list of laggy ones lol. o-o i say put less prominence on p5 in rotation :O i dont know cause usually the laggiest of maps come from there |
Roflzor « Censeur » 1371312720000
| 0 | ||
Haruhitastic a dit : Many of these old maps are rly awesome, agree!! But the problem with most of them is the gameplay, since 8 of 10 of those maps have no fun gameplay. It's like wjing over the art, grab cheese, wjing back, done. And if we perm them all, than the category would turn eventually rly damn boring :( Anyway you can still make awesome art maps with blocks and dynamic blocks. But I think people don't feel encouraged since by using Viprin's editor it's much better looking, but you can always try! There are rly awesome maps done only by blocks, retangles and circles. I was trying one myself a while ago, and I'm not intending to give up! :-) |
Typenick « Citoyen » 1371314520000
| 0 | ||
Shamousey a dit : They don't really need to be easier, they just need to be open and have a lot of room to build. I really liked map 0 appearing way more often that other vanilla maps and I wouldn't mind if that was brought back. Roflzor a dit : This. A thousand times. It's always good if players always see something else to achieve in the game than mindlessly farming cheese/firsts/whatever. Exposing players to harder maps kinda enforces creative thinking on them. Shamousey a dit : Or simply accept new maps built around same or similar concepts. IMO mapcrew should forget about nostalgia effect and judge old maps just like they judge new maps. Editing inactive people's XMLs always felt kinda wrong to me, it's like cutting trees and plating new ones in someone's garden when they're on vacation. |
Impuredeath « Citoyen » 1371314940000
| 0 | ||
What do you guys think about it if I made some sort of Map Request thread, where I could request a specific type of map with specific requirements. Something like a minicontest with p# discussion price. But this way I could for example ask for very open p4 style maps for example. And players have a goal to work towards. This is trying to improve the rotation from the player/mapcrew perspective. Typenick a dit : I talked about it with some map makers before, but like you said. Most mapcrew members complain about the unoriginality, and the players don't want to steal maps. Personally I think if the player is inactive it should be done. And if the player is still active we should let him know, that he can fix his map. |
Haruhitastic « Censeur » 1371315300000
| 0 | ||
I think that's a wonderful idea Harm! And I would be prticipating lol |
Typenick « Citoyen » 1371316080000
| 0 | ||
Impuredeath a dit : Sounds like Paradigm Shift to me, anyone remembers that? Still, nice idea. I haven't made a map in ages but I might submit something. P.S. Shhh... @365009 @365011 ;) |
Impuredeath « Citoyen » 1371316560000
| 0 | ||
Typenick a dit : Now if they were graphically updated I would add them for p4 discussion ^^ But I have heared of paradigm shift, but I have no clue what that is. |
Typenick « Citoyen » 1371316860000
| 0 | ||
Paradigm Shift was a contest where map makers got a specific theme and they had to make a map with it. Then they were judged and winner got to choose next theme and judge submissions. I never took part in it myself and it died really long time ago. |
0 | ||
I'll just share my personal opinion on the rotation, I guess that serves some kind of feedback-ish function. The things about the rotation that mostly annoys me are: - Shaman maps are way too hard. There are a lot of maps that are very challenging. They are quite fine for room shaman, but for normal rotation, no. They should take account of the fact that a challenge only is fun if the challenge is appropriate for the level the players are on. I myself can't even do some of those maps as shaman, let alone people that just started having only 500 cheese (I consider myself pretty experienced having 150k saves). It's only frustrating for them. If people want to practice their sham skills or want to get better at shamming, that's what room shaman is for where you can set your own level. But for normal rotation I'd suggest slightly easy maps that are perfectly able to be finished with some creativity - even for new players. - Another point of irritation is the mechanical/art maps. The gameplay is mostly interesting in these maps, but as a sham it totally sucks. There are a lot of maps on which you can't do anything but sit down. If you start building, all you do is mess up the map even more causing a lot of those maps to just glitch making it unable for mice to finish. They should either make it soloable maps (like suggested here before) or find some solution to serve the sham a function on those maps. - Another thing is coöperation maps. I've never really liked them, but lately I've started to really dislike that when I'm sham; I'm either playing a fight map or a cooperation map. Basically there are just too much in rotation, or the prevalence of the whole category should be decreased. Either one of those two. Also the same applies for some of these maps as what I said in the first part, with some being too hard. - I know this isn't really a MapCrew thing, but I wish map 0 would play more again. I agreed that at first the map played too much, but then they changed it and tbh, now I haven't seen it in a long time. They should find some solution in between and make it play a bit more than it's played now. So basically, I agree with reviewing the whole rotation and I wish some changes are made. What these changes are, is up to you. |
Papero « Citoyen » 1371354360000
| 0 | ||
Impuredeath a dit : the most buggy maps come out of mapcontests... so i dont think it be a good idea to hold that as such of a contest. |