share your thoughts :D

I don't support this suggestion (sorry virtini). Some won't be able to have any permed maps because they begin in mapmaking, so P0 maps are the only way for people to show their creativity on room, even if the maps aren't really good. There are P0 that are really funny to play, and people can submit these maps thanks to the Submit Other People's Maps thread. Having a P0 maps costs 40 cheese, and it's a good thing, some mapmakers won't try to spam bad maps or empty maps in rooms.
However, I support this suggestions you gave us:

Virtini a dit :

clearly write down in-game how do submission threads work.

New mapmakers (that didn't know about this) will be able to submit their maps, and wait for a review on them, would be a good way to improve themselves at mapmaking.

The problems with "showing their creativity" are:

P0 maps actually plays quite rarely and most of them are old maps being completely stuck in this category for years, so a chance your map will be noticed is quite low

people at rooms doesn't really care about who made a certain map, they rather seem to care about gameplay.

submitting map as P22 and submitting it in a forum thread will also work well for this purpose - many people actually play submitted maps just for fun

If a new mapmaker wants to share his creativity with other people, he can always submit his map as tribe house and then show it to his friends on utility, or [lol] tribehouse, instead of potentially ruining other mice fun with his poorly made map.

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You said there are P0 maps which are fun to play - that's obviously true, but these are minority. Also most of maps submitted in a thread you linked are P22, apparently.
P0 maps costs alot to prevent mice from spamming them too much and that's also true, but I don't see how is it an argument against my suggestion. It's just like... the only thing about this kind of exporting maps which actually works well?

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Also no need to sorry, lol. And thanks for supporting at least part of my suggestion :3

/no support

P0 gives some variety in the map rotation, deleting all P0 maps would be hell since there's thousands of them.
If you see any maps that break the rules, feel free to report them to a Mapcrew member in-game or post the codes in this thread.

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I can support the idea where it would tell a map creator where they can submit their maps for a higher perm upon exporting a map as P0/P22.

Twenty mapcrews with nobmaploader can wipe out the category in a second, I guess?

Also I understand the whole variety stuff as I like variety too, but come on, shouldn't we focus on maps quality a bit more? I mean, the more maps, the better the rotation is, but letting complete junk be a part of it isn't really a good idea. P0 part of normal rotation is like adding 5 completely random maps made out of random grounds to survivor. No gameplay, works horrible, but hey, at least there are more maps so we have more variety? Also my suggestion weren't only about it - it was also about the confusion P0 causes among new mapmakers and how useless it is as such map may never get P3+ category without submitting it in forum.

I agree with this suggestion. P0 is a rudimental category which was created in an age where there weren't nearly as many maps as there are now. The need to add as many new maps as possible does no longer exist, and this system doesn't work anymore due to the amount of maps, as pointed out by the OP.

Instead of deperming all p0 maps, it's easier to just take p0 out of the rotation altogether. Effectively it will turn into a second p22 category, but with much less work. When p0 is taken out of the rotation, p1 maps which are of a slightly higher standard will play more and continue to provide the variety that we want.

/no support

imo, with p0 being deleted, a lot of bad maps would be submitted to wrong categories, and the submission threads would overall be flooded with terrible maps from beginner map makers, and it'll make the mapcrew's life much harder, especially in rotation, since some categories get detailed descriptions of why a map was rejected, it'll take forever explaining everything to beginners.

on the other hand, there are categories in which there are no explanations provided, and beginners have no idea on how to improve, since they receive no criticism at all.

Nice idea @Anythin with just taking out P0 from rotation. Simple solutions are often the best.

@Grapeup if people would submit maps to wrong categories, mapcrews may just do what they always do in such cases, vel rejecting them with "not a (category) map" or "you should submit it as (category)" instead of any other comment - not really much to do from their side.

What you said makes me think you see P0 as category to exist because it's easier for mapcrews to have it instead of dealing with beginners, but hey, many beginners sooner or later discovers forums and begins to submit their maps and ask for reviews. Others just quit mapmaking and their potential is completely lost. Also, why the hell do mapcrew team exist if not to help beginners make better maps and therefore make rotation better? You see the problem for mapcrews dealing with beginners, but you don't see the potential advantage for rotation if mapcrew team teach some of them how to make good maps.

I know I'm getting quite off-topic, but I also think making a good, detailed tutorial on how to make certain categories of maps like Atinesta did with P4 would help, if the threads were nicely translated to many languages and pinned somewhere. Then, mapcrews wouldn't at least need to keep making same reviews (or avoiding it as Ikke did here) because some people would read the tutorials and just not make such mistakes, and the others would be just asked to read the tutorials.

Also i know unclear system of submitting maps prevents complete noobs from submitting their "masterpieces" (kinda lit move, the question is: is it fair?), but what's the reason of adding these to rotation at all, even in such weird state as P0?

Categories with no explanations provided, along with huge time in-between reviews which may lead new mapmakers to just quitting due to their lack of patience are completely different problems and I think they are worth another discussion, but not here. There are many things in map editor, map submitting system and how mapcrews do work I'd like to discuss, but not here. I'ma try to stick to the topic for now.

Virtini a dit :

I know I'm getting quite off-topic, but I also think making a good, detailed tutorial on how to make certain categories of maps like Atinesta did with P4 would help, if the threads were nicely translated to many languages and pinned somewhere. Then, mapcrews wouldn't at least need to keep making same reviews (or avoiding it as Ikke did here) because some people would read the tutorials and just not make such mistakes, and the others would be just asked to read the tutorials.

The thing with tutorials like those is that it limits creativity. Map making is a creative process where you try new things to see if they work out. If you implement too many restrictions and limitations you'll end up with the same maps. The submission threads really outline the basic requirements for a map. In my opinion this is more than enough.

Virtini a dit :

Also, why the hell do mapcrew team exist if not to help beginners make better maps and therefore make rotation better? You see the problem for mapcrews dealing with beginners, but you don't see the potential advantage for rotation if mapcrew team teach some of them how to make good maps.

Mapcrew isn't here to teach players how to make maps, they're here to do quality control on submitted maps. Even though some Mapcrew members do take the time to help the community by making tutorials and guides, this is not their initial job. These Mapcrew members make these tutorials because they are a part of the map making community, not necessarily because they are Mapcrew members. While one can reinforce the other, they shouldn't be seen as one.

I feel we're getting offtopic, but I can't really hold myself when discussion is actually good.

Speaking about helping beginners I rather meant answering their questions and reviewing their maps in the best way mapcrews can do, not anything else - that's why I stated it before speaking of tutorials. It was just a counterargument for what Grapeup said.

You said that tutorials limit creativity, but I don't really feel like it does so. Mapcrews' hate certain things like forced solutions in shaman maps, confusing paths in bootcamp or boring back and forth maps in P9, so why is there no thread showing what does it mean, how to interprete such thing in a review and how can a mapmaker fix such problem?

Too detailed tutorials are indeed bad and may limit creativity, but such tuts like Atinesta made could be very useful, if it just was possible to find them with more ease. Moving to other part of your post, you said mapcrews are here to do quality control... yeah, maybe, but if not them, who is there to provide a good amount of quality mapmakers? I know it's not an obligatory part of their job, but I guess it'd be nice if them, as more experienced in categories they review, shared their knowledge. And let me say that once again, I don't really mean making tutorial for noobs or spending alot of time thinking how to teach certain people how to make maps, but just answering beginners' questions and provide help when necessary. Also it was not part of a suggestion, but yeah - it's rather my own point of view - so I think we... kinda moved too far from the original subject.

Right now I'm thinking that I actually made this submission because I kinda do care about new mapmakers and I want them to be able to start mapmaking in a clear, simple way... but yeah, it's 2018. are there actually any new mapmakers at all?

I personally export all my maps as p0 just so I can see if people like it or not. Yes you can do this with p22 through reviews or help from friends, but those are just qualitative data. You can't get any quantitative data through p22. With p0 you can see the votes, which helps a lot.
Also I have tons of shit maps that aren't good enough for p3+ but people still enjoy. Without p0, there's no place for any of these maps, especially after p1 changed from "non-rulebreaking maps" to "decent maps". p0 also allows people to find new good maps. Not everyone knows about submission threads, and some of them just export it as p0 and hope for the best.

but i love getting soulmatecollisioninstantdeathnominimalistmodegrounds maps
joke but i actually like getting p0 that are good sometimes and just fun maps that would never be part of real rotation. bootcamp-esque maps, even more challenging shaman maps and even the kills all mice maps can be funny. i would rather get one of those than a mech map with bad sync or a perm map that has a shaman despite being clearly meant for racing