SPAS-12 isn't bad for conj if all shots land where you want but there is a better weapon everywhere.

Cutting through conjuration, fire rate and clip (one bullet destroy 5 blocks, one at the middle and the four around him, like a + ) .

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Speaking conj, the only weapon I see for shooting through is a railgun but that kind of weapon is too powerful, anti-armor sniper rifle IRL are just crazy, a railgun can't be weak, the weapon in video games is always a powerful weapon, like Gauss cannons (I don't know if it's the same weapons but both are anti-armor) .

EDIT : ping isn't a problem for me...

EDIT 2 : I like this fail...

This is what happens if you quick save when enemies who use rail guns are near.

+supergrunt a dit :

SPAS-12 isn't bad for conj if all shots land where you want but there is a better weapon everywhere.

Cutting through conjuration, fire rate and clip (one bullet destroy 5 blocks, one at the middle and the four around him, like a + ) .

EDIT : ping isn't a problem for me...

The thing about the spas 12 is that CCA has been provided in terms of its cooldown of 400, not 100. So if you want a CCA with that value then you should use the CCA of weapons with cooldowns of 100 - that is, about 62% (compared to what would be 11%)

The CCA formula would be a linear one assuming the opponent is not repairing their walls. It's also an instantaneous value (doesn't take into account endless clip sizes). It's an exponential one because its easier to block a slower weapon than a faster weapon because of ping or reception problems.

Ping is a problem for me. This data is useful for non pingers and high pingers around. Since people's internets vary so much you are likely to encounter a relatively bad reception with another player. It is harder to block a faster weapon with higher ping than with lower ping since you can respond immediately with no hitbox activation delay on lower pings.

Sure a ping around 16/13 isn't common, I was able to fight two guys with M4 the other day, killing them with minimal damage for me.

Sometimes, I'm able to make the other guy waste his whole clip of Steyr Aug against my conjuration, if not, only few shots...

I guess that's why I'm able to fight all other weapons without big problems if the other player isn't so good... just enough to fire at me.

Yeah.

Alright, I've come up with a solid formula for CCA so I'll explain it in the OP under summary of changes.

And about perks ?

About perks, we're not really focusing on that atm, plus there's nothing really OP (except maybe the shelter perk)

I don't find Shelter OP, 30 seconds cooldown...

But Ammunition is a bit slow for me, I'm faster with /mort.

And both Mine & C4 don't care if the player is at the center or not, do the same amount of damage :/

I'll think about it. The ammunitions perk is bugged (because it's supposed to provide a leftover clip if you're holding too many on deployment, but this spare clip causes a bug)

The shelter perk might be a bit too strong in that it provides 90% defence.

Also I included LCCA on the summary to match CCA. The chart looks clean and complete now.

The Ammunition perk always do that with that clip, he is just taken if one is missing (it's possible to avoid him) .

Yeah, it's possible to avoid it and so get 3 clips from the perk instead of the usual 2 (it's supposed to restore at 1 clip every 4 seconds)

Anyways thanks for the input. I'm getting people to proofread this report and then it's time to send it off.

I extended the summary even further so it's even more detailed. Shows basically everything about the weapons.

E: Wow that was a lot of work.

I'm sure the Ammuntion perk work with "tick" or something like that, sometimes I have 2 clips at once (tne extra and one form the perk) ...

EDIT : I destroyed a FAMAS at close range,right before the other guy start shooting at me. M4 > FAMAS

I find that P90 still shadows the famas. Their damage is not too far apart, 1.7>1.6. Their cooldown is the same and p90 has a lower reload? please reconsider.

+supergrunt a dit :

I'm sure the Ammuntion perk work with "tick" or something like that, sometimes I have 2 clips at once (tne extra and one form the perk) ...

EDIT : I destroyed a FAMAS at close range,right before the other guy start shooting at me. M4 > FAMAS

Famas needs a slight buff, but not for this reason.

holistergo a dit :

I find that P90 still shadows the famas. Their damage is not too far apart, 1.7>1.6. Their cooldown is the same and p90 has a lower reload? please reconsider.

Famas has a higher damage per second (DPS). Famas excels at long range combat (DWDPS) while P90 users might not be always comfortable using it at long ranges since it misses. P90 also has a smaller inner range (not mentioned in the data) meaning it shoots just a little less further away.

There's perhaps something I forgot to include in the CCA and that's the precision of the weapon. The famas has better precision and so even if the weapons have the same cooldown the famas is much better at defeating conj users.

When considering using something for combat I would rather use the famas than the p90 because of the long range reasons. I'd use the p90 for digging.

I think they're quite balanced, honestly. If there's an issue we can always get a minor change, but I'd rather not buff the famas for fear of it trumping the M4 A1. Most people would probably think the M4 A1 is more useful than a P90, which is why I'd rather not nerf the P90 either.

A further argument is that people's precisions tend to stagger a little when they're taking return fire. With a P90, you're going to make a lot more errors especially when being pushed around by other players and being shot at (and the precision is borderline in terms of the chance of hitting a distant foe), whilst with a Famas you can pretty much lock on regardless of being moved as long as you're not an Octodad on the mouse.

Remember, reasons for a weapon being OP or underbalanced or balanced might not be justified by the numbers alone. We try to put as much as we can into numbers but fort is just that complex.

All weapons are fair when used properly; but unfortunately, all weapons aren't fair when used by beginners.

Solfn a dit :

All weapons are fair when used properly; but unfortunately, all weapons aren't fair when used by beginners.

Beginners are destroyed by stronger players, even with a better weapon.

Nice graphic! The high precision ones seem a lot less spread out.

Ammunition perk really need a major buff... unless you play on Domination, dying is more effective... because on a flag game, it's not hard to find a clip on the battefield or around the flag, I use this perk with my marksman set because sometimes I'm camping somewhere and I keep players on me (if they are common players, they are easy to kill) .

One idea is increasing the max number of clips a player with the perk carry (weird things happen) .

Or... you can't run out of ammo with, increasing the number of ammunition users super fast, just OP but the actual perk is not enough good.

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EDIT : I tried the UMP-45, just increase the clip because you are in trouble if you miss your shots.

ANOTHER ONE : lol guess what ? The UMP-45 is terrible against SPAS-12 with Rage, this is what happened in Domination, that weapon is the SPAS-12's main opponent !

Ump is TOO op with that buff, Long range expert for sure, 23 per clip is 46 damage, it can kill 1 player in a blink of an eye. I would recommend 20 per clip.
Also for spas maybe lower its reload time or increase cooldown then stick to the 3.3 damage and 7 per clip, making it a shoot and retreat weapon. Similar to sniper except higher damage output per second.
Then lower the clip for sniper or make it so that it'll be a 4 shot kill with only 1 duck damage. and 3 flat damage.

holistergo a dit :

Ump is TOO op with that buff

Isn't... crouch damage and conj already ruin a single clip which are very important.

If you can make the UMP waste multiples clips on you, then it's a good thing, he need ammo now.

holistergo a dit :

Ump is TOO op with that buff, Long range expert for sure, 23 per clip is 46 damage, it can kill 1 player in a blink of an eye. I would recommend 20 per clip.
Also for spas maybe lower its reload time or increase cooldown then stick to the 3.3 damage and 7 per clip, making it a shoot and retreat weapon. Similar to sniper except higher damage output per second.
Then lower the clip for sniper or make it so that it'll be a 4 shot kill with only 1 duck damage. and 3 flat damage.

With the way ump-45 is it should deal more damage per second than the MP5, but be extremely hard to kill in 1 clip (to control its abuse).
MP5 is basically almost guaranteed to kill someone if you manage to get in their faces. I reduced its damage but fully compensated for its loss of damage per clip, so it'll still work the same, it's just not as good with individuals anymore. I was very careful not to buff the ump's damage because of how good it mathematically is at long range. It's also got the best Conj-cutting ability in the game so I was careful not to increase the clips too much. It's like a very scary version of the uzi. It looks intimidating but it's actually not really.

To look at it in the math, look at the Mp5 and the ump-45 (Check that "Summary of changes" page). The TTK for ump is 1.330s and for mp5 is 1.360. That's barely any difference. Accounting for the ump's better ability to slice through conj, and greater long range ability, it should be pretty equal or just slightly better to the mp5 in TTK. It's obviously not the best for fighting individual foes, as the MP5 has a greater damage per clip 57.5 compared to Ump's 46. Mp5 is more guaranteed to kill an individual foe than ump-45, and is still all around better than the ump-45. Ump is just a better medium-long range weapon and is deadlier to people who abuse conjuration. So it's not overpowered, if Mp5 is controlled with these changes. Buffing the ump's clips a bit more was the right decision. I would have just stuck with mp5 instead if I didn't buff the clips a little more.

A weapon is considered overpowered if:
- DPS is way too high [Spas-12 and Mp5 currently]
- DWDPS is way too high [Mp5 and Spas doesn't show up mathematically but their wide range allows it to be spammed with little attention to aiming FOR EXAMPLE, if the required precision was 30 degrees and we had the spas with 60 degrees that's 30 degrees of lehway it has to shoot and be indiscriminate about its DWDPS -- funnily enough, the actual required precision is LESS than 30 degrees, so the spas has even more lehway than described here, 30 degrees is huge]
- DWDPC weighted against DWDPS is too high [DPC*Chance; Nothing really fits here. Ump is the best DWDPS but its DWDPC is terrible]

The spas 12 has two alternatives, either make the damage low enough to force secondary weapon use or make the damage low enough to reward spasers for being careful with their aim (due to the spamming problem that's happening now). It's still the most powerful close range weapon.
MP5 has a spamming problem too but that will be controlled with a slight damage reduction.

The m40 has problems with its hit and run ability. It can just slaughter entire groups of people if there are enough M40 A5 on one team, so its damage needs to go down a bit. A crouching mechanic like originally proposed that makes its crouching damage much more than other weapons may be needed so that the M40 takes 4 hits to kill a standing opponent but also 4 hits to get a crouching opponent. Weapons that deal that much damage instantaneously are going to be a problem with hit-and-run, and especially if multiple of those connect at once. Other automatic weapons don't have that same ability.