Should conj be scrapped? |
Redd3 « Citoyen » 1457656260000
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Blueztorm « Citoyen » 1457915760000
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Definitely NO. Nothing can replace it without affecting the game play in such ways that it's unrecognizable. |
Holistergo « Citoyen » 1457919420000
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Many people are putting NO without thinking of what we can change in conjuration, as i said we can use extinction's conjuration just not solid to team. For this reason i put Yes. The ones who put yes have a good idea on what we can replace it with. Again this is why in my posts about updates, Veterans must teach and influence new players and rookies to figure out for themselves what updates would be helpful and which aren't. Because if we do need to replace conj and as many as 81% of players say "No, we shouldn't change anything" then were doomed for wrong updates. Conjuration isn't an update that the developers know how to change. Let me give you guys a hint, Why would anyone want to replace and or remove conj? What mechanic is simple much like conjuration? |
+Supergrunt « Citoyen » 1457961780000
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It's easier to glitch because of the game engine, you don't even need to create blocks over yourself, conj something that look like a U and stand in the hole, if you are below the line, you sink like a boat until you respawn. Unlike Fortoresse, it's possible to create paths you can use an infinite number of times and they are used for the shelter (if your team use them) around the fridge, to allow players inside to get out and attack. The line is at fridge level so it's possible on the map, it's a short wall but it's just to show spots that make you glitch through the defense. |
Rrucho « Citoyen » 1457982660000
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Conj meaning the pixels right? I have no problem with it, although sometimes people over used it. Maybe we can limite how many pixels a player can use per map. Between 100,000 to 200,000? |
Siuker « Citoyen » 1458101460000
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Although I have leaved the game for like 1 year,I vote yes. I have abused it so many times. the thing to replace it is,a type of ground in Sonic. As you see,you can pass through it,but also stand on it. The change of conj only affects to yourself. You can't glitch yourself anymore as the ground doesn't collide with you. You can still fly high,but you have to jump.And you can't use it to dash anymore Since enemy's conj remains unchanged,enemy can still void you. Whatever this is what I come up with,and not sure if the devs(game developers) can do it. This ground also suits for Tfm,which it should be created for Tfm long time ago.But it doesn't,so I suspect they don't introduce this ground for Tfm is because they can't/complex to do it. Dernière modification le 1458101760000 |
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This post is very long, it contains all my current thoughts about this topic. Read only if you're ready to, don't take ideas from my post. Think about it yourselves; you will be fortoresse's future role models. We don't want braindead players like we do now. They kill the game. Do not remove, but needs fixing There's a big problem with glitchers. It's very difficult not to be tempted to go sniper and spas to counter annoying sniper and spas users who use nothing but the glitch. When they do, automatic weapons basically always miss, and suddenly your enemy is up in your face and kills you instantly. Furthermore, more of these annoying players hail from other servers and make it a tradition to visit our servers at some point during the day whilst inviting their friends, and completely mess our games up with one-sided tactics involving conj. We're trying to be a peaceful server encouraging diversity but its not under our control who comes and visits our rooms. To stop glitchers, severely restrict conj usage. It has to come out very slow and be at that empty conj mark (where the blocks come out slowly) forever. Alternatively, make the conj bar MUCH smaller (5 blocks in the bar instead of 30 [So glitchers can't use obsceningly long paths to teleport to you, it stops short]). Other tactics can still be used and defending is possible. The conj will build up easily if the entire team uses it at once to seal off a point. Unfortunately, the drawback to this is that speed climbing suffers, and so it will be much tougher for users to ascend upwards. However, it may be made up for by including a perk that boosts the user upwards. The subsequent drawback of this is that it takes up one perk slot and restricts the user. It's not just glitchers we have problems with: We have spawn campers. Conj is too overpowered for spawn camping, and newer players get confused between attacking a player near spawn and completing the objective. Slowing down the rate of conj usage will slow spawn campers but cannot stop them completely. Obviously, this solution is flawed. We have tried to think up strategies to stop spawn campers but they are too complex. In addition, we cannot restrict the conj sufficiently without harming speed climbing. In addition, the continued existence of CJS would not stop shotgun users from playing the cheap way of just walking (or gliding) up to people to get massive killstreaks. So, we go to the only other solution: Get rid of conj Get rid of conj entirely. I feel that conjuration would have done much better if fortoresse was an overhead shooter. Speeding up the player with glitches would still be possible. However, we need to consider the current advantages of conj. Those are that it allows the user to defend themselves and it allows them to travel much faster. Having fortoresse as an overhead shooter would make gameplay a little more skilled than it is now. Unfortunately, sniper would be the dominant weapon in this game type. So it is still flawed. We need to nerf the sniper and spas so they require more skill. Spas does not have an option to approach a player without conj. If we got rid of conj, they would stop using the gun. Everyone would instead use sniper. It is too powerful and the medic perk is too weak to counter sniper damage. Everyone would just drop instantly in front of this gun. So, we need some new mechanic that allows players to gain speed. Fortoresse's unique characteristic is that it is a world of blocks. Can we base something off this? Removing conj would also destroy people's defense options. We need something that can help players defend. Is there something we have now that can help? Look at the perks. What if there was a unique perk that could also be derived from tfm's mechanics. Instead of conj, we could inspire something off the wooden planks. The perk could be used as a bunker like a wooden plank, allowing the player to build up walls over time with the perk and rotating the wall with x and z keys, and placing it down with the mouse. The bunker is only solid to the player and the enemy team. The bunkers can only be used periodically and could be used either for defending or to create a platform or ceiling. Of course, with an instant wall like this it would create the same problem sniper has now. It causes way too much damage instantly when there are lots of them. So, there needs to be a counter perk to this. There could be some form of dynamite that eliminates all bunkers and all other bunkers they are in contact with. Players would have to be smart with their bunker placement to prevent a single dynamite from destroying an entire fortress (unfortunately, this solution is flawed as trolls can place these walls to deliberately make a team lose) Spawn camping would not be a problem, because the bunker has a timespan to recharge again, giving players time to kill the spawncamper while the bunker recharges. Another drawback is that it takes up a perk slot. Perhaps this should be given its own unique slot so everyone can use it. Or perhaps, to compensate for the little time the player gets to deploy the bunker, its size can be dependent on how long since the last time it was used, and has a maximum size; so it encourages players not to spam it. No more camping, no more spawn campers, no more glitchers. Think of the girder from worms games; that's basically how this would work. So, now the issue is: How can we make players move more quickly? The spacebar would be empty. What's a simple mechanic that's comfortable to use with spacebars? Grappling hooks. Escaping with a hook would require tactical play. There is no instant teleportation getaway anymore, there would be a delay between firing the grappling hook and it hitting your intended target to make a getaway. Being smart with this would require pre-emptive and well thought out tactics for engaging the enemy. The hooks can be activated with spacebar and shoots in the direction of the mouse. The hook can be deployed and put away by tapping the spacebar. The player can move up and down by using the up and down keys, and can swing left to right with left and right arrows. The swings may build speed up in the player or can have a limit, so skilled players can make use of it to get around maps quickly. With the limit in place, its possible to see grappling users at all times so they don't teleport (due to unintended glitching) and are easier to track. A shotgun user can make use of clever grappling hooks to surprise an enemy by getting up close (for example, by swinging to them or zipping up to them with the up/down feature) and destroy their enemies. It gives time for the players to react and promotes much more tactical play. They can spam the weapon if they want, but it should do minimal damage. Thinking about the way to get closer to the enemy to get the powerful meat shots should be the way to play the shotgun. It should be extremely devastating at close range; not all ranges. More experienced or "pro" grapple hook users can use the girder at the same time as the hook to swing in midair to gain additional height. So the upper parts of the map would still be traversable; it just takes a skilled player to get there. Unfortunately, this would make worse the problem of newer players staying at the bottom of the map not knowing how to get up. I do not have a solution for this. Unrelated; however, we still have the issue of snipers, even if the shotgun finally has a smart way to play. Sniper needs a hard nerf, and needs to take skill to play. It needs to have a scoping mechanic. Scoping in increases the damage the sniper does but restricts the user's vision. It also has a delay before it can fire after it first scopes in. Noscoping with the sniper does minimal damage. A smart sniper can make use of bunkers and grappling hooks to make skilled scoped shots on enemies. Getting chased by an enemy would be the sniper's weakness, as they have minimal options to defend. This would encourage secondary weapon play. I feel like there needs to be a convenient way to activate both bunkers and conj. Perhaps the unused Ctrl key is where we should look. It's just used for conj right now. It could have potential other uses. Ctrl is used in nekodancer separate to the spacebar; so it's not out of the question. BIG DISADVANTAGE: It's not possible to get away from a shotgun user if they are given this privilege and get close to you. If they somehow find a way to exploit the system, we will end up with worse than the current problems with the game. (actually it's impossible to get away from an unskilled shotgun player if you're unskilled yourself ^^') [But at least you'd get some reaction time.. and perhaps a bunker to stop them grappling directly to you] So based off these, we'd still have Fortoresse the way it is; It'd just feel a lot different (and I'd probably get really confused with the new mechanic; but there are some interesting potential applications). We'll still stay true to Fortoresse's block world roots, but maybe it would resemble worms' destruction mechanic or minecraft's building system more with the changes I suggested. [I'm also prepared to defend this idea with evidence if anyone wants to grill me (which is a good thing; go ahead), or if they can suggest a better idea I'll take that] Dernière modification le 1458125100000 |
Leeqiujie « Citoyen » 1458126960000
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srsly? if the conj scrapped... how can i fly that high? |
+Supergrunt « Citoyen » 1458128820000
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Siuker a dit : It's a common type of ledge in video games like that, very useful to make one way paths. But the right click is unused, using the spacebar for something like that is just bad, left ctrl and spacebar are better as perk keys (left handed players should have two unused fingers) . |
Qtnaiya « Citoyen » 1458137040000
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Well, conjugation is what makes this game unique and interesting from another other shooting games so I wouldn't consider removing them. Btw, conjugation shouldn't be something that we need to concern about when there are others that should be of priorities. Dernière modification le 1458137160000 |
Qtnaiya 1458137100000
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[Modéré par Calysis, raison : Double post.] Dernière modification le 1458137220000 |
Fewfre « Citoyen » 1458138600000
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I've been keeping quiet since I'm -VERY- biased on this. As I've mentioned off-hand a few times, without conj I wouldn't be playing this game. I'm not really a "Shooter game" person, be it FPS, bullet hells, 2D shooters, etc. I just don't have the reaction time and aim to cope or have fun. But Fortoresse having conj adds an original element that not only makes it different, but offers a defense strategy that isn't solely depending on "skill", and relies more on creative thinking, since you have to think about who you're blocking (including yourself), what's the best place to do so, does the C4 explosion ruin everything? etc. Also, flag maps would need to be increased AGAIN if we removed conj, since other than me most people care about their death count, so they won't suicidally go into the flag just to buy 5 more seconds for the team. This wouldn't solve a problem, it would just exacerbate the current ones. Normally I'd go on to acknowledge the other piont of view, but as I said, I'm biased and I don't wanna >:|. But here's some ideas to not completely remove a good mechanic: I'd be fine with either conj spawning being a little slower, or for each player to have a certain amount of it before the old conj disappears (although I like it as-is). As far a gltiching, I'd be fine with Tig rewriting it to not gltich, and only allow you to gltich back in the direction you came. Or even gltich towards the average position of all your teammates. If you get stuck in the middle of a map, boho. shoot your way out =p Or even my anti-conj acid gun idea no one cared about =p But as far as removing conj, I refuse, and would quit. not being dramatic, just fact. it would just no longer be the Fortoresse I care about :( I see the point of the conversation, but just no. Plus, of all the updates we can push for, I don't feel this is the biggest concern personally. But again, I'm biased. qtnaiya a dit : Yes, this ^.^ |
Alaka1ne « Censeur » 1458149880000
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I'd rather see it reworked. |
+Supergrunt « Citoyen » 1458150360000
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Fewfre a dit : At the time the game was just a comment on Extinction, they got an idea about this, something made for this job. When the Transformice Beta was released, I think they changed that idea into an explosive device (unlike the C4 or the Mine, leave a long hole behind, horizontal or vertical) . |
Holistergo « Citoyen » 1458179820000
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In response to solfn, i believe that the grappling hook mechanic will work like the string connecting 2 players in a "Soulmate" map. I also agree with the bunker perks and would appreciate it if it were stable.However as mentioned i have a problem with people trolling with explosives. You can easily kill your team and fly in mid air and nothing to stop you. But regardless to all of the ideas for removing Conj, i still dont see how its the greatest idea ever. And i'm still wondering why glitchers are that big of a deal, its not guaranteed that you will make it out alive and to your destination, its not even guaranteed that you will even be able to perform it. If you're trying to get away by glitching then you're already being shot at leaving a lot of your blocks being destroyed. Its going to be limited to the point where you can't even glitch, for glitching you can't be shot at by fast weapons. This will only work if you are in a 1v1 and you managed to get far enough so that you aren't being targeted. Again you won't be sure that you will even glitch to the destination you want, you don't even have a high chance of glitching in front or behind your opponent. The problem i want to fix is where if you spawn conj around yourself to the point where your screen is now shaking you are actually glitching a lot. Making it hard to aim at you. This is especially dangerous when used on flat ground on the void. I call it a "half-void", and the thing that is dangerous is for one its hard for you to be shot at and second, you have total control meaning you have no problem aiming because its just your screen. The trick looks like this, If you perform this trick, sometimes you may glitch up and down right and left real fast making it hard to aim at you, but on your screen you're perfectly fine. Dernière modification le 1458179880000 |
Siuker « Citoyen » 1458188280000
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Do not remove, but needs fixing solfn a dit : I agree,conj can be abused so bad. So a few months ago I suggested,to lower the conj regeneration but higher capacity. Perhaps the conj now has 50 capacity and 10 regeneration,after change regeneration will be 6 but capacity will be like 80. In long term you have less conj to spawn,you have to conj carefully. And a perk to buff your conj ability is great too. solfn a dit : I think it's easy to do in code. 8 pixles within your base,this area auto fills up with ally conj.That means enemy can't get in when you can easily walk through or use it to defense.And it's too huge for enemy to block this area. Holistergo a dit : Glitch is too good for me. When I'm in danger and have to flee to somewhere,I don't care where I glitch to,just leave this position then it's fine.If I stuck I will quickly switch to Uzi to clear and perform glitch again. Sure sometimes I fail,but about 80% of time I can flee away. Holistergo a dit : Yes indeed!,sometime I use this trick unintentional,and it rather hard to snipe me. I agree,conj is the core of this game,otherwise this is just another normal gun game. So I come up with another idea of conj. What do you sense when you look at this? My idea is,one sdie their conj can only occupy black area,and enemy side can only occupy the white area. So when I try to glitch,as there are so many space,it's hard to glitch as usual. And with this change,spawn camp is harder,as the conj is weaker. |
Nemielle « Citoyen » 1459517940000
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No, in my opinon it would spoil the entire game if conj was removed. |
Cheddarfist « Citoyen » 1459646940000
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Conj shouldn't be scrapped but have a time limit which means it will disappear after spawning it for some time. I think the appropriate time would be around 40 seconds which is around 1/6 of the whole time per map in a regular map, and 1/3 in domination. Many strategies in Fortoresse includes conj, therefore if conj is scrapped then we can't do the c.j.s etc. The weapons would be even more unbalanced without the help on conj. Apart from digging, most of the maps require conj, for example this one: If there wasn't conj, the spawn on the right gets a huge advantage since the spawn on the left can only travel on the ground while the other team can just hover above them. So my answer would be NO Dernière modification le 1459647000000 |
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Let me tell you one thing.if conj was removed from fortoresse ,90% of the maps will be removed as the conj is basically for getting heights. |
+Supergrunt « Citoyen » 1459796580000
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Solfn a dit : You should change that by the way, conjuration don't ruin the game at all. Colbawa a dit : New maps would be designed but seeing the crappy possibilities with that engine next to the one used on Forteresse (can't use one way paths and can't use "ropes" because it's just a straight vertical line) ahahahaha...... very funny. Not broken, don't need to be fixed. |
Holistergo « Citoyen » 1459911660000
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So we all agree to a new game engine, yes? Because I like how the forteresse engine can somewhat fix most of the problems were facing with current conj. We might need to tweak the engine a bit have hit box and contact with conj stay the same. This is because the forteresse game engine does not allow propelling in mid air and using conj to elevate to higher ground is VERY VERRRYYY hard or at least a lot harder. |