Solfn a dit :

It's also got the best Conj-cutting ability in the game

Yeah it's the best weapon when you find someone hiding behind his conj shelter however you can only dig a very short tunnel not wide enough, the reload time still save the small clip size.

That's why the UMP 45 is very good in areas filled with blocks, the M40 A5 nightmare.

A very good hit-and-run weapon, if you unload a clip on a SPAS guy.

Solfn a dit :

A crouching mechanic like originally proposed that makes its crouching damage much more than other weapons

I think I remember that... -40% ? That was for snipers themselves I think unless you are talking about something different.

No they were going to make it so that crouching had less effect when taking damage from sniper, then they removed it because it was op.

solfn a dit :

No they were going to make it so that crouching had less effect when taking damage from sniper, then they removed it because it was op.

lmao, this is the UMP 45 that need that, he suffer a lot from crouch damage.

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solfn a dit :

Why are we talking about the spas-12 here?
Below are all the arguments for an update that balances out the spas12, but this thread is not about updates.

If you need to know, the first issue is that it deals too much damage instantaneously as well as the m40, especially with the problem of conj. I played a player that lags like crazy so it's impossible to avoid a direct hit from his spas, then he retreats back into his hole. Laggy players and glitchers have taken advantage of the damage from the spas and m40 to use this strategy and cannot be defeated except by the same weapon and strategy, forcing other players to adopt the style. It takes no skill; players just glitch until they get lucky and end up in the perfect spot to hit a player.

The second issue is the inaccuracy of the weapon. It's only required about 19 degrees of the accuracy to hit a player. This means that the spas 12 user has 60-19 = 41 degrees of freedom to point their weapon approximately at the player and still get the same damage on average. So the weapon is spammable, since the spas12 user does not even have to exactly aim at their target to get results [40 degrees is huge]. Another luck factor, because three of the four shots still have a chance of hitting the player at max range, and chances are this will happen if the player spams the gun several times.

In terms of spammability, its actually possible to mathematically prove that the Mp5 is more broken than spas in this area. So the spamming problem is even worse with mp5 users. They don't need to aim, and have well over 95% chance of doing major damage to the enemy by just clicking.
There is a stigma called W+M1 in team fortress 2, where the player is just oblivious to anything else and just only presses the W [to go forward] and Mouse 1 [to shoot]. This also exists in fortoresse. I could get a massive killstreak by just walking into players and firing. I have a screenshot to go with it to prove it.

Spoiler

The DPS must go down. Something needs to be done about the spammability of the weapon too, spas should be incredibly weak at long range; not still as competitive as over 50% of weapons are at max range. Play any other game with a shotgun, the guns are incredibly powerful at short range and require a lot of skill to get the meat shots, but they're terrible at long range. The snipers are generally weak as well and have no damage falloff, but require skill because they must target the head and are rewarded for being patient and accurate.

=========================

If you are going to defend your weapon, be polite about it and try to support your answer with some evidence. Sure, I understand some spas 12 players do have some skill [Even if that's the only weapon they use..], but that's only when they know how to get all of the meat shots that do full damage. The players that are considered "good" abuse all the broken parts of the weapon; they're getting an unfair advantage and getting considered pro for it.

But the DPS was lowered at some point right ? When they fixed the weapon... what happened after this ? A joke, but not because of a bug.

The time to kill was too slow and it's enough for a shotgun.

The shotgun was a joke because nobody was ever skilled enough to get in close with the shotgun to score lots of kills without dying.

+supergrunt a dit :

solfn a dit :VoirMasquer

No they were going to make it so that crouching had less effect when taking damage from sniper, then they removed it because it was op.

lmao, this is the UMP 45 that need that, he suffer a lot from crouch damage.

---

solfn a dit :VoirMasquer

Why are we talking about the spas-12 here?
Below are all the arguments for an update that balances out the spas12, but this thread is not about updates.

If you need to know, the first issue is that it deals too much damage instantaneously as well as the m40, especially with the problem of conj. I played a player that lags like crazy so it's impossible to avoid a direct hit from his spas, then he retreats back into his hole. Laggy players and glitchers have taken advantage of the damage from the spas and m40 to use this strategy and cannot be defeated except by the same weapon and strategy, forcing other players to adopt the style. It takes no skill; players just glitch until they get lucky and end up in the perfect spot to hit a player.

The second issue is the inaccuracy of the weapon. It's only required about 19 degrees of the accuracy to hit a player. This means that the spas 12 user has 60-19 = 41 degrees of freedom to point their weapon approximately at the player and still get the same damage on average. So the weapon is spammable, since the spas12 user does not even have to exactly aim at their target to get results [40 degrees is huge]. Another luck factor, because three of the four shots still have a chance of hitting the player at max range, and chances are this will happen if the player spams the gun several times.

In terms of spammability, its actually possible to mathematically prove that the Mp5 is more broken than spas in this area. So the spamming problem is even worse with mp5 users. They don't need to aim, and have well over 95% chance of doing major damage to the enemy by just clicking.
There is a stigma called W+M1 in team fortress 2, where the player is just oblivious to anything else and just only presses the W [to go forward] and Mouse 1 [to shoot]. This also exists in fortoresse. I could get a massive killstreak by just walking into players and firing. I have a screenshot to go with it to prove it.

Spoiler

The DPS must go down. Something needs to be done about the spammability of the weapon too, spas should be incredibly weak at long range; not still as competitive as over 50% of weapons are at max range. Play any other game with a shotgun, the guns are incredibly powerful at short range and require a lot of skill to get the meat shots, but they're terrible at long range. The snipers are generally weak as well and have no damage falloff, but require skill because they must target the head and are rewarded for being patient and accurate.

=========================

If you are going to defend your weapon, be polite about it and try to support your answer with some evidence. Sure, I understand some spas 12 players do have some skill [Even if that's the only weapon they use..], but that's only when they know how to get all of the meat shots that do full damage. The players that are considered "good" abuse all the broken parts of the weapon; they're getting an unfair advantage and getting considered pro for it.

But the DPS was lowered at some point right ? When they fixed the weapon... what happened after this ? A joke, but not because of a bug.

The time to kill was too slow and it's enough for a shotgun.

Nice killstreak, i think i can identify guest accounts now.

If i remember correctly, people would use to just spam it from far away, and even if they got close, the fire rate was too slow. Maybe if the fire rate were to be equal to today's and enough ammo for one clip to kill then it would've been pretty good. But then as Solfn said, rushing was not a tactic back then.

Well I have a new solution that might solve every problem, but I'll be posting it only later.
Feel free to discuss it with me in game if needed

The only problem I have is spas. This whole thing is irrelevant honestly.

Well it seems that the changes proposed in this thread are actually not enough. I've noticed a new trend with every weapon: If it has the potential to kill fast, it's abused.
This means spas, mp5 and m40 a5. Everything else is too weak; some too weak and some just totally outclassed by the abused weapons.

Sure,killing too quick is a problem,which the feature weapon is spas.
But killing quick is not good,with the lag,you may get killed without even knowing who killed you.
In most situation,dps in long term is less important than the one in short term.To point out their strength,something takes a long time to destroy will be great.So that other weak weapon can deals more damage than spas
such as zombie.
I feel sorry to recall everyones painful memories,we still dont have the updates

In 99% of battles you will not encounter and die to an enemy which you cannot see. The probability of that is quite low, and there are signs that tell you such an enemy is approaching.
In 80% of situations you will fight an enemy that does not run away when their health is low.

If you can't kill an enemy fast, they will just wriggle away into a space you can't get to, then they'll just snipe/spas spam you again and chase you to your death.

If you can kill an enemy fast, you don't have to deal with prolonged spawn campers anymore, not have to deal with annoying camping enemies who abuse cheap tactics and actually think about how to approach and kill your enemy without taking too much damage.

The solution to our problems is to actually make weapons kill faster. It seems counter intuitive, but that will actually fix everything. Spawn campers, campers, glitchers. All will be nerfed. Weapons as they are kill too slow and there's too much distinction between those weapons with too much killing power and those with too little. If all weapons are brought closer by killing time, it will make it easier to play tactically and not using cheap luck based strategies.

Funnily enough, spas is actually showing us the answer to the problems to fort. We just need to make it easier to kill people. If you can surprise attack and kill a player quickly, you won't give them enough time for them to abuse cheap weapons with stupidly high rates of damage and kill you anyway. This would actually make playing tactically better. We could actually start to teach our players about defending and being smart about their moves, rather than just walking up to an enemy and spasing them and getting rewarded for basically nothing. Inexperienced players can't even kill an inexperienced spaser before they get up close in their face and die anyway. Reducing the time to kill would help a lot. There is only one simple change we have to make to do that; but other weapons must change too.

Unfortunately with the above, long term damage per second is becoming less and less important with the rise of the glitcher army. Short term dps and hit-and-run tactics are becoming increasingly popular. So spas, mp5 and m40 are their desired weapons. Under the new system, m40 will suffer the biggest nerf, but it is needed (m40 is becoming a bigger and bigger nuisance as three of them can instantly kill a player with hit-and-run tactics before they realise what happened). Spas 12 will not change that much, but they cannot simply walk up to you anymore and shoot and expect to kill.

Bringing the spas/mp5 back down to the same caliber as the more balanced weapons would not eliminate spawn camping and camping in general, even though they could perform to the same caliber with the way people are using them now. It just has to be easier to kill. Stuff needs to go UP to the caliber of the spas; the spas isn't actually the one that needs to be brought down.


So we have two options:
1) Buff the "balanced" weapons greatly so they deal a much greater damage per second. Some things with too much ammo need to be kept the same. The buffed weapons need to lower in ammo count. Disadvantage: Secondary weapons become completely useless unless also buffed
2) Lower the maximum HP of players to 20. The "balanced" weapons that get buffed in 1) remain the same [with less ammo], but everything else gets scaled down. Disadvantage: Secondary weapons are too good and would ALL have to be nerfed.

On the Transformice beta, the max was the same as Forteresse (10 or 12 with assault) , I don't remember damage per shot but I guess it's all -1 HP.

Slow weapons like the AK 47 or Steyr Aug suck, any weapon with a good firerate win, the sniper rifle is saved with the damage per shot of course.

solfn a dit :

This means spas, mp5 and m40 a5

Where is the UMP 45 ?

Ump 45 would be more abused if it killed in one clip.

To be killed in one clip on the optimal condition, all bullets must hit and there must be nothing between them that could obstruct the trajectory, except that's not always the case with advanced players that can use the conjuration and crouch to protect themselves, so only beginners got owned.

Exact, it's a fast and powerful weapon but that's all, it's too easy to make the UMP waste one or two clips, one block is enough to save your life from one attack and it's very easy to spawn one block.

The reload speed save the UMP 45 from the low DPC but I think you have enough time to do something before half of the shots are on you.

But that would simply make UMP an efficient Mp5 in my opinion. Explain why this isn't a similar situation to the MP5's current OP state?

The problem with ump is that because it can't kill, the element of surprise is ruined and it can't be used as a surprise weapon. So there's basically no way to use this gun without taking any damage.

The UMP 45 is a fast weapon, hit and run style but it's better to pull out the weapon 2 and steal few HP before... and don't forget a perfect clip = target nearly dead, a counter attack (with you being full HP/good) would be the worst idea with the reload speed.

It would be very similar to the MP5 situation if it were to have a full clip that kills with no other changes made to the gun though. Would it not?

MP5 & UMP 45 are like M4 A1 & Famas or AK 47 & Steyr Aug.