/support

Leonboss a dit :

angelfromaj a dit :VoirMasquer

natrats a dit :VoirMasquer

They removed totems from survivor a while ago and it was causing too much glitching, so the survivor mapcrew had to remove the feature shortly after releasing it. I don't know if the survivor mapcrew only found a loophole for removing totems, or the admins actually got rid of it at the time, but I don't know if it would be worth the lagging and glitching to get rid of totems.

Seb explained why it was taken away

My thoughts about removing survivor totems goes with Diamondwing about limiting cannons within the totem editor. Some people don't abuse the totem and removing them completely wouldn't be fair to all.

/halfsupport

Too much lag.
/nosupport

I don't know why does it cause lag, glitch or whatever it does. Their job is to make the game better for players and this totem thing doesn't let us play comfortably, i'm sure theres someone who can find a solution to the glitching once the totems are removed.

I wasn't saying that it isn't possible, only saying that it was removed once in the past and it caused problems. I am sure there is a way to fix it, but it doesn't appear to be at the moment.

The solution mapcrew implemented into the maps didnt work good sadly. If the admin easily remove hardmode from survivor (divine mode doesnt work too, so I think it shouldnt be that hard) there wont be any problems with lag or glitches.

/support BAN TOTEMS IN SURVIVOR

/support

Totems restrict new players with hard mode to enjoy the way of killing the original way. Totems are also not fair to the survivors because we are not aware of what the totem is, and sometimes the totems are something like a god (which is bannable) and that causes conflict within the chat and with players, which causes reports of insults and other along with people banning each other. Without totems, it would cause less commotion among players and less arguments. (:

/support

lunarianuba a dit :

Because there are some lucky guys surviving it (anvil gods still can kill everyone most of the time)

I disagree. Most maps have obstacles in the form of grounds that give mice a safe haven from cannon totems. This has nothing to do with luck, but everything with the design of the maps. After using this totem, the shaman still has to use it's skill to kill the rest. Of course some maps do not have these obstacles, but then again not every shaman has a cannon totem. The odds for a shaman with cannon totem to get such a map is completely random.

lunarianuba a dit :

While other totems doesnt add anything to survivor, how is removing them out of proportion?

It's easy to say that just because a totem doesn't add anything to survivor (in your opinion), it should be removed. With that in mind, should totems be removed from vanilla aswell? Because there are people in vanilla rooms who have useless totems consisting of nothing but invisible balloons. Of course totems aren't being removed there, so why should they be removed in survivor for the exact same reason?

i support this good man
totems are the reason i stay away from survivor

Anythin a dit :

I disagree. Most maps have obstacles in the form of grounds that give mice a safe haven from cannon totems. This has nothing to do with luck, but everything with the design of the maps. After using this totem, the shaman still has to use it's skill to kill the rest. Of course some maps do not have these obstacles, but then again not every shaman has a cannon totem. The odds for a shaman with cannon totem to get such a map is completely random.

When you have a totem consisting solely of cannons and nails, the totem can glitch out of control and kill every mice even though some had no visible contact with the totem at all. This is like the anvil god, with the maximum use of anvils and nails, mice can easily be killed even if the map contains safe havens. The safe havens may help you hide when shamans are shooting only cannons one by one, not for hiding when totems glitch as no mice is left as the survivor after using that type of totem.

Even though not every shaman has a cannon totem, what are the odds of them having a totem that is completely harmless? Pretty low. Now survivor beginners all take advantage of cannons and create massive killing tools in hope to farm. But really they possess no skills at all.

Anythin a dit :

lunarianuba a dit :VoirMasquer

Because there are some lucky guys surviving it (anvil gods still can kill everyone most of the time)

I disagree. Most maps have obstacles in the form of grounds that give mice a safe haven from cannon totems. This has nothing to do with luck, but everything with the design of the maps. After using this totem, the shaman still has to use it's skill to kill the rest. Of course some maps do not have these obstacles, but then again not every shaman has a cannon totem. The odds for a shaman with cannon totem to get such a map is completely random.

lunarianuba a dit :VoirMasquer

While other totems doesnt add anything to survivor, how is removing them out of proportion?

It's easy to say that just because a totem doesn't add anything to survivor (in your opinion), it should be removed. With that in mind, should totems be removed from vanilla aswell? Because there are people in vanilla rooms who have useless totems consisting of nothing but invisible balloons. Of course totems aren't being removed there, so why should they be removed in survivor for the exact same reason?

I don't see why do you bring up vanilla into this since we're talking about Survivor ONLY. I don't know if anyone else mentioned vanilla but comparing it to Survivor is totally ridiculous, while totems were made to help in vanilla (supposedly), totems are made to KILL in Survivor, i don't think when totems were implemented in the game, they were thought to be added to Survivor, or were they?

/support

Chocojell a dit :

When you have a totem consisting solely of cannons and nails, the totem can glitch out of control and kill every mice even though some had no visible contact with the totem at all. This is like the anvil god, with the maximum use of anvils and nails, mice can easily be killed even if the map contains safe havens.

I wouldn't call the totem you're referring to as cannon totem, because as you say it is like the anvil god. That's exactly what it is. I've suggested in my earlier post these god totems can be tackled with limiting anchors. The cannon totem I am referring to is the one shown in the OP where you have (a) vertical line(s) of cannons without anchors involved.

Leonboss a dit :

I don't see why do you bring up vanilla into this since we're talking about Survivor ONLY. I don't know if anyone else mentioned vanilla but comparing it to Survivor is totally ridiculous, while totems were made to help in vanilla (supposedly), totems are made to KILL in Survivor, i don't think when totems were implemented in the game, they were thought to be added to Survivor, or were they?

Why not? Totems were implemented to help the shaman with whatever their goal is, whether it be saving mice in vanilla or killing mice in survivor. In that sense anvil gods and cannon totems are doing exactly what they're designed for, to help the shaman achieve its goal. Saying totems should be removed because there are many useless ones makes no sense in any game mode. You can't blame the totem feature for the (lack of) creativity of the shaman.

The problem laid out in this thread is not the existence of the totem, but the creative freedom (and benefit) that comes with it. Limiting this creative freedom is therefore a better option than removing it altogether, in my opinion.

/support

Anythin a dit :

Leonboss a dit :VoirMasquer

I don't see why do you bring up vanilla into this since we're talking about Survivor ONLY. I don't know if anyone else mentioned vanilla but comparing it to Survivor is totally ridiculous, while totems were made to help in vanilla (supposedly), totems are made to KILL in Survivor, i don't think when totems were implemented in the game, they were thought to be added to Survivor, or were they?

Why not? Totems were implemented to help the shaman with whatever their goal is, whether it be saving mice in vanilla or killing mice in survivor. In that sense anvil gods and cannon totems are doing exactly what they're designed for, to help the shaman achieve its goal. Saying totems should be removed because there are many useless ones makes no sense in any game mode. You can't blame the totem feature for the (lack of) creativity of the shaman.

The problem laid out in this thread is not the existence of the totem, but the creative freedom (and benefit) that comes with it. Limiting this creative freedom is therefore a better option than removing it altogether, in my opinion.

There's not only cannon totems and anvil gods, they can make their totem with whatever they want and there are some to which the chances of surviving are 0. I don't really know if you ever played or play Survivor, but let's assume you don't, you're giving a subjective point of view, all the people who have /support'd the thread and i, don't. We are saying what we feel and we know what's it like to have a "perfect score" or maybe not that, just.. knowing we're doing it well in Survivor, but then, some random players come and spawn their "creative" totems and makes us lag, pisses everyone off, etc.

It is just frustrating, i have 66k played rounds give or take a few. When i just started in survivor there were a few shams that totemed us to death, but it was ok the ratio was low only 1 in 10 or 15 shams that had a totem. Now however it seems like 1 in 3-4 shams has a "creative" totem( honestly i don't see the creativeness in that). To me being creative means killing mice with the aim of cannons, Doing it in a way the mice have diffuculty avoiding it. To me as a shaman that is challenging, as is for the mice because you need skill. Where is the skill in putting down a totem and done. That is just a cheap way to get cannon coins. Survivor is only half the fun with totems so i say, make survivor great again like in the time with the aimbot, there where no totems there either. Make survivor great again.
I FULLY SUPPORT NO TOTEMS IN SURVIVOR

Leonboss a dit :

There's not only cannon totems and anvil gods, they can make their totem with whatever they want and there are some to which the chances of surviving are 0.

Which is why I suggested to limit the totem rather than removing it completely. Why do things need to change so drastically when fine-tuning works just as well?

Leonboss a dit :

I don't really know if you ever played or play Survivor, but let's assume you don't, you're giving a subjective point of view, all the people who have /support'd the thread and i, don't. We are saying what we feel and we know what's it like to have a "perfect score" or maybe not that, just.. knowing we're doing it well in Survivor, but then, some random players come and spawn their "creative" totems and makes us lag, pisses everyone off, etc.

I play survivor from time to time, but I wouldn't call myself a regular survivor player. When I play survivor, I don't mind being killed because that's what happens in survivor. If I would only have to avoid endless cannons I would get bored because the shamans can't think of more original ways to kill mice. Regular survivor players might not agree with me, but I like it when there's a shaman with a totem that is different than the usual things. I'm not saying that I enjoy anvil gods, but seeing something different once in a while keeps things interesting and fun.

Yes, and it is really "fun" to watch all mice get wiped out in one second. Yeah, I would call that "fun" too. Ridiculous.

When you become a regular survivor player, you'll see that shamans with skills are the ones that are worth dodging for.

/support

Anythin a dit :

I disagree. Most maps have obstacles in the form of grounds that give mice a safe haven from cannon totems. This has nothing to do with luck, but everything with the design of the maps.

If its that easy I wonder why cannontotems wipe mostly at least 50% of a room in a few seconds.
Mice always spawn on a flat platform first, which is in the range of the shaman. Means if the shaman is fast enough you barely have time to reach a point where you are safe.
Beside that, most of the maps dont have such obstacles, at least not accessable for the mice first. Look at http://api.micetigri.fr/maps/search/p10?direction=desc&sort=id&page=1 most of the maps dont offer a place to hide from cannontotems (you also should think about that one of the 20 cannons is slower for sure, means if you hide behind a ground it will roll you off).
You also dont know if the shaman will use a totem or what it is or where the cannons will spawn. Before you have time to react you will be dead already. If you dont believe me I can pretty easy show you that the survive rate is very low at cannontotems.

a dit :

After using this totem, the shaman still has to use it's skill to kill the rest.

After using the totem there are on lucky rounds 10/25 mice left. Means 15 killed already with 0 effort or skill. Do you think it shows the skill to finish of the 10 mice left? (Beside that most just use the totem and dont do anything after that because they cant kill on other ways, the skill is completly missing.

a dit :

Of course some maps do not have these obstacles, but then again not every shaman has a cannon totem. The odds for a shaman with cannon totem to get such a map is completely random.

Of course not every shaman has a mass killing totem, but at times it feels like 50% of the shamans are using one. And yet again, most maps do NOT offer such obstacles.
You cant imagine how happy I am if I get to sham without seeing a cannontotem before.

a dit :

It's easy to say that just because a totem doesn't add anything to survivor (in your opinion), it should be removed. With that in mind, should totems be removed from vanilla aswell? Because there are people in vanilla rooms who have useless totems consisting of nothing but invisible balloons. Of course totems aren't being removed there, so why should they be removed in survivor for the exact same reason?

The different shaman modes were added for vanilla, not for survivor. Divine mode has also been removed due to the unfair advantage of the big range, as well as some skills.
You cant compare vanilla with survivor. In vanilla the shaman and the mice work together, if the shaman doesnt have a useful totem or even a totem which kills mice he has a loss. The totem is meant to help the shaman BUILD at hardmode, which is probably the most use of totems there and not senseless totems. If the shaman has a helpful totem he has a gain, aswell as the mice because they can get cheese.
At survivor its pretty different, a "good" totem helping the shaman is a loss for the mice, as they have way lower chances to survive. Means basically either there are senseless totems (invisible things) or totems disturbing the mice for survivor (cannonwall/god/etc).
At vanilla there are senseless totems or totems helping the mice (unless the shaman messes up but then he has a loss), so nobody there will complain.
I dont say senseless totems should be removed, I say totems disturbing the gameplay should be removed and thats the case with a "good" totem in survivor.

a dit :

I've suggested in my earlier post these god totems can be tackled with limiting anchors.

The ballgod or however to call it (http://i.imgur.com/mLSQSpk.png the 4 cannons attached to the ball) works with 4 anchors and is mostly even more effective than a classic anvilgod, so that wouldnt help.

a dit :

Totems were implemented to help the shaman with whatever their goal is

Only the shaman? A good totem in vanilla also helps the mice, while in survivor...

a dit :

Saying totems should be removed because there are many useless ones makes no sense in any game mode.

Nobody said anything about removing useless totems. We are talking about removing totems disturbing the gameplay in survivor, nobody complains about useless totems, not in survivor and also not in vanilla.
The no supporters came up with "But then I cant use my useless balloon heart anymore", which is really not a loss for anyone.

a dit :

The problem laid out in this thread is not the existence of the totem, but the creative freedom (and benefit) that comes with it. Limiting this creative freedom is therefore a better option than removing it altogether, in my opinion.

People can be creative in vanilla, where it doesnt really disturb someone. Beside that they can use their creativity to gain some survivor skills and do creative combos or tricks.

a dit :

Which is why I suggested to limit the totem rather than removing it completely. Why do things need to change so drastically when fine-tuning works just as well?

Because I dont think the admins will do the effort of doing that fine-tuning. I rather want totems completly removed from survivor than waiting for 5 years when they can effort enough time for the fine-tuning.

a dit :

I don't mind being killed because that's what happens in survivor.

I dont mind it too, but I mind getting killed in an unfair way.

a dit :

If I would only have to avoid endless cannons I would get bored because the shamans can't think of more original ways to kill mice.

You are kinda contrary to yourself there. As you said yourself there are alot of different totems, thats why they shouldnt be all removed, but there is only one unoriginal way to kill mice without totem? Beside that a cannonwall totem would be also just avoiding cannons, there are alot different and original ways to kill without totems.
If shamans would use original totems I could agree with you, but when 80% just use a random 20 cannons totem its far far away from being original.

a dit :

but seeing something different once in a while keeps things interesting and fun.

I can agree to that, but if 95% of the shamans use totems just for mass killing it gets annoying. So I really dont mind if the 5% interesting and original totems get removed for that. (Though lately I didnt see any interesting totem)

Its also a problem that new players instantly accept it as a good way to kill everyone and start using totems aswell. This will bring up even more totems and more and more, one day survivor will end up with 90% of the shamans using totems.
Instead of that they should learn to play good and get other tactics to effectively kill the mice.


Edit:
I would actually be pretty fine if only cannons get removed from the totemeditor or cannons wont have speed in totems (they will just fall down).
Because totems containing cannons are in 99% just a cheap to kill everyone fast with 0 effort put in it.

Lunarianuba a dit :

Beside that, most of the maps dont have such obstacles, at least not accessable for the mice first.
[...]
And yet again, most maps do NOT offer such obstacles.

Except, they do:

Since cannons have a downward movement, these horizontal grounds give you the ability to avoid cannons (if the cannon totem from the OP is being used, as an example). Sure, not all of these maps have such grounds but the majority of the maps do. And this also doesn't mean mice won't die, but if mice wouldn't die then there would be no use in using a totem. Also, those players who die because of a totem, is it because they couldn't avoid it or is it because they were afk or not paying attention? It seems rather easy to blame this on the use of a totem alone when often people are also too busy talking or arguing or doing other things.

Lunarianuba a dit :

You cant compare vanilla with survivor. In vanilla the shaman and the mice work together, if the shaman doesnt have a useful totem or even a totem which kills mice he has a loss. The totem is meant to help the shaman BUILD at hardmode, which is probably the most use of totems there and not senseless totems. If the shaman has a helpful totem he has a gain, aswell as the mice because they can get cheese.
At survivor its pretty different, a "good" totem helping the shaman is a loss for the mice, as they have way lower chances to survive. Means basically either there are senseless totems (invisible things) or totems disturbing the mice for survivor (cannonwall/god/etc).

You're right, the totem is to help the shaman. How is that different in survivor? The totem is there to help the shaman kill the mice. It's not there to save mice (in survivor), that would make no sense.

Lunarianuba a dit :

Only the shaman? A good totem in vanilla also helps the mice, while in survivor...

Just because it is beneficial for mice in vanilla, doesn't mean it has to be beneficial for mice elsewhere. The essence of the totem is to help the shaman. If other people benefit from it that's just extra.

Lunarianuba a dit :

Nobody said anything about removing useless totems.

Lunarianuba - page 1 of this thread a dit :

While other totems doesnt add anything to survivor, how is removing them out of proportion?

Your words...

But yes, I still think that limiting the totem is better than removing them completely. If that means cannons are being removed from the totem, I don't even mind because it still leaves plenty of options to experiment with.